School Safety: To Plan, or Not to Plan.........

On the insurance issue: www.nytimes.com/2013/07/08/us/schools-se...?pagewanted=all&_r=0

There are more sites that talk about this, but this was the first one that came up.

"Community" involvement in planning issues is essential from my perspective. This is a very contentious issue fraught with potential pitfalls. Excluding the "community" is one of those potential pitfalls. Being a recipe for failure depends upon one's perspective regarding whether or not this is a viable option.

Out of sight, out of mind isn't adequate, nor is it practical or realistic, from a planning perspective.

Along with just haphazardly arming school staff are other questions that must be considered beyond those I posed earlier. This is something the insurance industry must address, as well:

Cost/benefit considerations.
Risk/threat assessment considerations.
Simple pros/cons.
Alternative options.
Best practices.
Legal issues.
Legal compliance.
Expectations vs documented positive/negative results/implications/ramifications

Just some things to think about.

ZHawke wrote:

HEARTLESS wrote: Also look into Briggsdale and Dove Creek, Colorado schools that are doing what were talking about.

I understand the limitations in response times associated with more rural settings. And, I'm not the least bit opposed to what these schools are doing in response. Rather, what I'm trying to do is ask the types of questions they should be addressing before doing something like this from a planning perspective.

For example, has the school gotten "consensus" from law enforcement and the rest of the "community" before going ahead with this? Has the school's insurance carrier been informed? Has the insurance carrier bought into the action? These are just the immediate questions that pop into my mind being the planner I am.

I know you've addressed the issue of adequate training for armed staff in a previous post. I defer to you on that because I'm not an expert in concealed or open carry. That being said, how should the issue of carrying at all in a school setting be addressed - open or concealed? Who should know, if anyone, when concealed is the preferred option?

Finally, but by no means the end of planning questions I have, what to do about parents on campus being allowed to open carry or concealed carry? This one is one of the most pressing planning concerns I have. And it's not a question related to gun free zones at all. My personal position on this is if a parent wants to carry on a school campus, they should agree to be placed on a list kept on file by the school (photo ID required) so as to be able to do a viable threat assessment if they identify a potential situation developing. Granted, in a more rural setting, the likelihood of school staff "knowing" every single parent is higher thereby setting minds at ease. However, given the possibility of domestic disputes involving child custody and so forth, the potential does exist for parents to cause some real mischief on school grounds.

Again, I offer all these questions strictly from a planning issues perspective, and am not be opposed to, or for, any of them. It's what I'm trained professionally to do, nothing more.

Thanks, again, for your feedback.

You chose the word consensus and put it in quotes, not me. You may want to refresh your meaning of the word and tell me where one single issue that the voters of the state had "consensus." You need a hobby as all you want is argument, disguised as discussion. When I graduated from college I had the following state licenses Property and Casualty, Life, and was an all lines adjuster, so yes I have some knowledge of the insurance industry. Have fun talking to the wall.

Well, that went to Hell in a hand-basket quickly, didn't it.

The truth of the matter is when planning issues arise, consensus is something to strive for. It may not be what everyone can buy into, necessarily, but it involves a majority in agreement from every definition I'm familiar with.

Argument disguised as discussion? Hardly. If you don't want to participate, no one is stopping you from leaving. The fact is emergency management isn't something that allows for anything but logical, well thought out discussions, identification of planning issues, and, hopefully, some kind of resolution of those planning issues before the fact rather than after.

When it comes to knee jerk reactions (something those on the gun control side of the fence have been chastised for repeatedly), I'd say the issue of arming school staff is just as much, if not moreso, of a knee jerk reaction on the opposite end of that spectrum.

Statistically, school shootings are rare occurrences. In the emergency management community, this is a low probability/high consequence type of event. Therefore, do the benefits of allowing open or concealed carry on school campuses outweigh the potential benefits? I guess that's something that should be determined at the local level while trying to take as many of the planning issues I've, and other professionals in the field have, identified into consideration before making a decision one way or the other.

Because you were involved in the insurance industry, you, of all people, should be aware of risk analyses from a liability perspective in this specific arena. And that is meant with all due respect.

HEARTLESS, if I'm coming across as being argumentative, I apologize. I assure you that's not my intent at all in this thread. As I've stated previously, I'm a planner in emergency management by profession (retired). I ask questions. They aren't meant to be argumentative at all.

I also try very hard to bring all the resources I possibly can to the table when discussing things like this. Some are more controversial than others.

When I began working in this field, there was a lot of opposition from those with whom I invariably worked with to start with. Over time, these folks became some of my best friends and supporters. Emergency management isn't an exact science. It takes a lot of patience, perseverance, and persistence to accomplish anything. In the area of school safety, just by the very nature of what's being dealt with (our children's well-being), things sometimes get a bit testy.

So, again, if I'm coming across as being argumentative, testy, or anything else along those lines, I apologize. I also assure you I'll try to be more aware and more careful in that regard in the future, as well.

Fair enough?

ZHawke wrote: On the insurance issue: www.nytimes.com/2013/07/08/us/schools-se...?pagewanted=all&_r=0

There are more sites that talk about this, but this was the first one that came up.

"Community" involvement in planning issues is essential from my perspective. This is a very contentious issue fraught with potential pitfalls. Excluding the "community" is one of those potential pitfalls. Being a recipe for failure depends upon one's perspective regarding whether or not this is a viable option.

Out of sight, out of mind isn't adequate, nor is it practical or realistic, from a planning perspective.

Along with just haphazardly arming school staff are other questions that must be considered beyond those I posed earlier. This is something the insurance industry must address, as well:

Cost/benefit considerations.
Risk/threat assessment considerations.
Simple pros/cons.
Alternative options.
Best practices.
Legal issues.
Legal compliance.
Expectations vs documented positive/negative results/implications/ramifications

Just some things to think about.

No where did I say to exclude the community, but consensus (accord, unity, unanimity) will never happen. Neither extreme can see eye to eye on this. Where is haphazardly arming school staff suggested except by you? I'm not going into strategies or tactics on a public site viewed by anyone, but nothing haphazard about placing classrooms with armed teachers near points of egress. If you have some statement to make about who would choose to participate in armed defense of students, make it. If you think open carry by school staff makes any sort of sense, justify it, or we can have them wear identifying beanies that bad guys can also see. The only people that need knowledge of who is armed at school is administration and law enforcement.

Regarding insurance, a property and casualty policy can be written to exclude certain scenarios, active shooter. There are many companies that specialize in liability policies, they would have input to training and certification of staff.

Lockton Companies is the liability insurance for gun specific issues that I have.

HEARTLESS wrote: No where did I say to exclude the community, but consensus (accord, unity, unanimity) will never happen. Neither extreme can see eye to eye on this. Where is haphazardly arming school staff suggested except by you? I'm not going into strategies or tactics on a public site viewed by anyone, but nothing haphazard about placing classrooms with armed teachers near points of egress. If you have some statement to make about who would choose to participate in armed defense of students, make it. If you think open carry by school staff makes any sort of sense, justify it, or we can have them wear identifying beanies that bad guys can also see. The only people that need knowledge of who is armed at school is administration and law enforcement.

You're right. Very poor choice of words on my part. My apologies. I'll give additional thought to your post and try to give answers that are more well thought out.

HEARTLESS wrote: No where did I say to exclude the community, but consensus (accord, unity, unanimity) will never happen. Neither extreme can see eye to eye on this. Where is haphazardly arming school staff suggested except by you? I'm not going into strategies or tactics on a public site viewed by anyone, but nothing haphazard about placing classrooms with armed teachers near points of egress. If you have some statement to make about who would choose to participate in armed defense of students, make it. If you think open carry by school staff makes any sort of sense, justify it, or we can have them wear identifying beanies that bad guys can also see. The only people that need knowledge of who is armed at school is administration and law enforcement.

Trying this again. You're right - you did not say to exclude the community. And my choice in using the word "consensus", by itself, is flawed. In emergency management consensus building is a key component. Consensus may never be reached, but it is the ultimate goal emergency managers strive toward.

At the risk of offending you (I hope not), and with all due respect, I ask what experience you may have in, or knowledge of, the field of emergency management? That will help me gauge a little better what I say from now on. It's obvious you have a level of experience in the insurance industry beyond anything I have. The same can be said for your expertise in the area of concealed and open carry. I acknowledge that and, more importantly, I respect that. In that vein, I'd like to think I know a little about emergency management because I've been practicing in this field since 1984. If you have knowledge of, or experience in, emergency management, I believe levels of expertise can be complementary when it comes to these kinds of issues. If not, then perhaps we can learn from each other?

You answered my "haphazard" comment with your very last sentence. Again, "haphazard" was a very poor choice of words on my part. In some previous discussions I've had on this issue, some have advocated open and concealed carry of anyone and everyone on school campuses. To me, that's a knee jerk reaction to a very difficult planning issue.

From a personal perspective, I simply have reservations about arming school staff if planning issues are not addressed beforehand. As an emergency planner, I also have a role in facilitating what's ultimately best for the individuals and organizations I work with. If I were a consultant working with any school anywhere, the questions I'm posing here are the very same questions I would be posing to them as we work through every conceivable planning issue based on best practices. And that, in a nutshell, is how I approach the design, development, and implementation of robust emergency management programs, be they for schools, government agencies, and other asundry organizations.

In Colorado, a law was passed and signed by the governor in 2008 requiring robust emergency management programs in every single school in the state. I don't have statistics on how far along schools have come by way of compliance, but I'd wager it isn't very far at all. That is, in and of itself, a huge liability potential if something does go south and non-compliance is discovered. Add armed staff into the mix without having done adequate planning beforehand, and that's my concern.

There is currently a dearth of expertise to help schools comply. There are lots and lots of companies out there willing to take advantage of schools in this effort and to also sell them on the hardware aspects of school security. But many of the actual experts in the field of school safety caution using and even contracting with these types of people and companies because they can end up costing a fortune with little, to no, definable or viable results.

My own mission is to promote the design, development, and implementation of emergency management programs for schools. If that involves arming staff, I'm ok with that. I also believe it is incumbent on local organizations to make that decision and to be as well informed as possible as to whether or not it is the best decision for their jurisdiction.

There is a lot of free information out there on how to go about doing that. I've previously tried in this thread to provide some of it. I look at it as a process. I believe I share the same goal as you do - to help provide for the safety of our kids in our schools to the very best of our ability.

ZHawke wrote: ...In some previous discussions I've had on this issue, some have advocated open and concealed carry of anyone and everyone on school campuses....

I hope nothing I have said could be interpreted that way. I think doing away with the gun free zone status is the best think we could do to discourage school shootings.

However, I would like to see some level of training beyond what is required for a Colorado CCW.

Just my opinion, I claim no expertise in anything.