Guns Don't Kill People, People Kill People

08 Oct 2017 13:03 #231 by ScienceChic
The former scientist in me really appreciated the in-depth analysis and conclusions this report came up with. From a former newswriter at FiveThirtyEight (those people who were perfect on predicting presidential elections until this last one): Gun Deaths In America By Ben Casselman, Matthew Conlen and Reuben Fischer-Baum

Washington Post Opinion article on that study above:
I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.
By Leah Libresco
October 3
Leah Libresco is a statistician and former newswriter at FiveThirtyEight, a data journalism site. She is the author of “Arriving at Amen.”

Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I’d lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence. The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns.

By the time we published our project, I didn’t believe in many of the interventions I’d heard politicians tout.

Instead, I found the most hope in more narrowly tailored interventions. Potential suicide victims, women menaced by their abusive partners and kids swept up in street vendettas are all in danger from guns, but they each require different protections.

1. Suicidal older men: better access to mental health care
2. Women at risk for domestic violence: better prioritization by police
3. Younger men at risk of violence: connect with mentors

With that in mind, how to best implement practices and policies to effectively reduce deaths committed by guns?

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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14 Feb 2018 17:43 #232 by ScienceChic
Are we ready to make Congress have a conversation about guns yet? Because the status quo doesn't seem to be working all that well, and there's little traction by our representatives to actually deal with this.
At least 17 dead in 'horrific' Florida school shooting, suspect had 'countless magazines'

Every major gun control bill proposed since the Las Vegas massacre is losing ground in Congress

Proposed Federal Firearm Legislation

Tell the House: Pass the STOP School Violence Act!

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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15 Feb 2018 08:42 #233 by ScienceChic
Shared with permission from the author in its entirety:

Another day, another school shooting. My thoughts:

I have been reading many appropriately emotional comments from friends and relatives in the aftermath of the Broward County high school shooting. I’ve even discovered I have close friends who’s children attend the school involved. It’s a shocking situation which makes me equally angry. I agree with everyone’s passion on the fact that this ridiculous violence must be stopped. Thoughts and prayers are fine, but I think its past time for some action to be taken.

First off, let me state my belief in our United States Constitution and the Republic our founders created. It’s one of the most impressive documents and efforts ever accomplished. The entire world, even those who’s governments are more socialist in nature, marvel at our representative form of government. The checks and balances, the individual freedoms and liberties and ability to be amended are it’s hallmark.

Some of my friends and relatives are suggesting we scrap our constitution and start anew. I think not. The process’s for change in our country is not to throw away our founding document and start over. The process for change is written right into the document. We have the ability to amend the constitution. We have the ability to fix what’s broken. It starts at the local level. It starts with your vote. It starts with finding politicians who can work together toward solving problems rather than being stagnant - polarized in their far right and far left views. Become politically active. Start with uniform term limits and tighten restrictions on political contributions. Gut the special interests and elect those who want to lead and make change into office. Find and support those independent thinking individuals in your communities who can transform our current polarized 2 party system into a multi-partied approach which actually gets something positive accomplished.

Gun control. The pink elephant. But first, lets have full disclosure: I am not a supporter of the NRA, I am not a republican nor am I a democrat. I am center conservative. I own guns. I do not own anything which could be called an ‘assault rifle.’ I am a retired peace officer, having served over 35 years.

Sadly, post shooting emotional calls to action banning ‘black rifles’ has become the standard. But, in my opinion its the easy way out and is, absolutely not the answer - nor even a ‘good start.’ It’s a misguided, simple approach to a problem with a much more difficult solution. It’s a “feel good’ response to a terrible situation. There are around 300 million guns in America today. Do you honestly think banning one type of gun will solve anything? I hear this...Yes, but if it prevents one shooting it will be worth it. How sadly ridiculous this contention is. Just look at the gun violence in those cities who have the strictest gun laws in the nation. Making a law prevents good folks from committing an act. It doesn't prevent criminals or those mentally ill from doing anything. Again, its a feel good resolution to an extremely complex situation.

I think we need to look at the root cause. The great majority of mass school violence cases has a common denominator - the criminal has mental health issues. It’s high time we realize we have a lack of suitable mental health care in our society. Our health care system needs immediate reform. Historically, We have transformed over the years from one side of the spectrum (insane asylums) to today’s system where most everyone can be outpatient - treated with prescription medications. Over the years, its become a big win for big pharma (Don’t get me started on big pharma) while society has alleviated many beds from in-patient mental health care facilities. As a result there are lots of really DANGEROUS folks running around our communities. I’m not in any way suggesting going back to the asylum days, but we’ve have to rethink and adjust our current line of thought and funding concerning those who really need help.

Our current standard of mental health commitment is: ‘A documentable danger to themselves or others.’ This is fine however, there are not enough bed spaces in our states mental health facilities to effectively hold, evaluate and treat those those individuals who need evaluation. In most instances, those picked up by cops who are exhibiting dangerous behavior are released back to the community before officers can complete the required M-1 paperwork. Many of these dangerous individuals need a lock up facility for treatment. Most are released for lack of bed space.

Additional funding is obviously needed to build regional treatment facilities and staff them with competent professionals. Those who are a legitimate danger need to be held and treated until they are deemed to no longer be a danger to society. How about a starting a nationwide effort, much like the space program in the 60’s, to resolve our mental health issues. Look for funding from alternative means...open up all doors and ideas - why not legalize marijuana nationwide and fund mental health and opioid addiction through pot taxation. How about less highway funding and more dollars directed to care for those who need help.

In any event, I agree with everyone -we must do something. Just think about the root causation vs. a feel good, short term resolution.

Mark Fisher


"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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15 Feb 2018 09:04 #234 by ScienceChic
This is wrong. Legislation that is introduced should be discussed in committee, compromise reached, and what's best for our nation and its citizens put to a vote. Leaving this stuff to languish without ever being addressed is how we keep the status quo, and the status quo is that our nation has far too many gun deaths from murder and suicide, lack of mental health care, and too easy of access to purchase guns by those who shouldn't be allowed to own one in the first place.


And this is one of the big reasons why that legislation languishes, obstruction by those who've been paid off. It's past time to get special interest money out of Congress.
A reminder of the NRA's top ten funded elected officials in both the House and the Senate
By Walter Einenkel
Wednesday Feb 14, 2018

Thoughts and Prayers and N.R.A. Funding
By DAVID LEONHARDT, IAN PRASAD PHILBRICK and STUART A. THOMPSON
OCT. 4, 2017

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Attachments:

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15 Feb 2018 12:15 #235 by FredHayek
Hillary Clinton and the Democrats have adopted gun control as a key platform even before this new Valentine's Day massacre and it helped them to lose an election. Maybe Americans have become immune to the horror of kids being killed? Or maybe voters don't think it is right to suspend the civil liberties of hundreds of millions of Americans to possibly reduce gun deaths. Since the 1930's, thousands of new gun laws have passed and gun deaths have been declining. But few believe the new laws are actually working, because after every shooting, there are calls for new laws. Personally I don't have the answer, but when you look at the numbers, most gun deaths are suicides. Will a law banning semi-auto guns stop that? Highly doubtful, only need one shot and it can be Gramp's shotgun.

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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23 Feb 2018 23:07 - 24 Feb 2018 12:01 #236 by ScienceChic
I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on this? Does this change anyone's mind here who owns an AR-15 or supports people being allowed to own them?

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns
They weren’t the first victims of a mass shooting the Florida radiologist had seen—but their wounds were radically different.
Heather Sher | February 22, 2018

As I opened the CT scan last week to read the next case, I was baffled.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.

With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to a trauma center to receive our care.

One of my ER colleagues was waiting nervously for his own children outside the school. Even as a physician trained in trauma situations, though, there was nothing he could do at the scene to help to save the victims who had been shot with an AR-15. Most of them died on the spot, with no fighting chance at life.

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients. It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet.

The CDC is the appropriate agency to review the potential impact of banning AR-15 style rifles and high-capacity magazines on the incidence of mass shootings. The agency was effectively barred from studying gun violence as a public-health issue in 1996 by a statutory provision known as the Dickey amendment. This provision needs to be repealed so that the CDC can study this issue and make sensible gun-policy recommendations to Congress.


A perspective to consider:
I’ve been shot in combat. And as a veteran, I’m telling you: allowing teachers to be armed is an asinine idea
By Matt Martin - February 20, 2018

Defending children is a must, but putting a firearm in the hands of even the most trained teacher isn’t the answer. Anyone suggesting this solution has clearly never experienced a situation like the one seen in Parkland because it oversimplifies the complexity of an active shooter situation, especially in close-quarters. It is not as easy as a “good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun.”

I ask that you take a few minutes to understand my perspective and why I feel strongly about this matter. Before recently moving to Charlotte, I served for three and half years as an Army infantryman, stationed at Fort Wainwright in Fairbanks, Alaska, and I deployed to Afghanistan’s Kandahar Province in 2011. By the time my tour was over, I left a place that claimed two members from my company, cost six others at least one limb, wounded over 25 percent of our total force, and left me with shrapnel in my face and a bullet hole in my left thigh. When I saw the news flash of another school shooting I couldn’t help but think of the firefights I had been involved in and how these students and teachers just encountered their own version of Afghanistan.


I haven't had a chance to read this yet from my friend ZHawke, but I'll leave it for future review and in case you are interested: FBI study on mass shootings 2000-2013
Blair and Schweit, Published 2014

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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24 Feb 2018 10:35 - 24 Feb 2018 12:04 #237 by ramage
Dr. Sher's Atlantic essay may tug at the strings of your heart, but it is woefully short on fact. It is the cartridge type, not the pistol or rifle that causes bodily injury. I would refer you to the following, www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022534705623087
"BALLISTICS FOR PHYSICIANS: MYTHS ABOUT WOUND BALLISTICS AND GUNSHOT INJURIES

RICHARD A. SANTUCCI'Correspondence information about the author RICHARD A. SANTUCCIEmail the author RICHARD A. SANTUCCI, YAO-JEN CHANG
From the Departments of Urology, Detroit Receiving Hospital (RAS) and Wayne State University School of Medicine (RAS, Y-JC), Detroit, Michigan
PlumX Metrics
DOI: doi.org/10.1097/01.ju.0000103691.68995.04
Abstract
Full Text
Images
References
ABSTRACT
Purpose
Wound ballistics is a difficult subject. The behavior of all bullets is unpredictable but the specific effect of high velocity projectiles has been a particular source of confusion in the literature. This confusion has resulted in the likely incorrect conclusion that all high velocity wounds require massive débridement. We reviewed the entirety of the literature on this subject and concluded that high velocity weapons do not reliably create massive wounds, and judicious débridement and staged explorations may be the best treatment method for these patients.

Materials and Methods
A MEDLINE search and retrieval were done of all pertinent references from 1966 to May 2003 concerning the field of wound ballistics. Articles initially missed in this search were obtained from the bibliography of retrieved studies. More than 70 articles and book chapters were reviewed.

Results
Five common myths about the tissue effects of gunshot wounds were reviewed as well as the data that dispel these myths. Information on the effects of different bullet types, and the intended and actual effect of military rifle wounds were assessed.

Conclusions
For the majority of high velocity gunshot wounds, especially military rifles that generally fire a projectile that is meant to stay intact after impact, wound severity can be limited, even much less than that from a civilian rifle, shotgun or handgun. Judicious use of débridement during surgical exploration limits the extent of iatrogenic injury in the surgical care of these patients."

Unfortunately your link associated with the Matt Martin comment sends me back to the Atlantic Article of Dr. Sher. Thus I have no way to determine the authenticity of the comment.
Was the comment a response to the article? Was it trolling?

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24 Feb 2018 11:20 #238 by hillfarmer
I agree completely with the need to provide better mental health interventions and mental health facilities. Even a cursory look at the people who have committed mass shootings shows mental health issues. Will that solve the problem? Not by itself. Like any other solutions it will help only in some cases, but it is almost certain that it will not help with all. Even with a tightened process for treating and then screening mental health issues it is probable that someone will fall through the cracks.

The same logic applies to heightened gun control. I personally, like many up here, have weapons to deal with predators. I don't have an AR-15 because I have never seen the logic to such a weapon, nor do I have the training or interest in something created to kill large numbers of people. I'll have much better luck with my 12 gauge if it comes to that.

Would banning the sale of such weapons solve the problem? With the numbers of weapons out there in the wild it is unlikely to have much of an immediate effect - even though the ban in Australia would seem to indicate differently. My take is that we can't expect any one solution to magically solve the problem. But it is time to begin trying some things.

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24 Feb 2018 12:01 #239 by FNP
I hesitate to enter this gun control debate but it would certainly seem that what we are doing as a nation certainly isn't working too well. We won't stop suicides and homicides, they are part of the human condition. But after considerable reflection, I do think we could do a lot to stop mass shootings.

This might be a Socratic approach to the discussion but I think it makes the point. Why haven't any of the mass shooters in the US used full automatic weapons? Why haven't they used grenades? Why haven't there been any mass shootings in Australia for the last 16 years? Why doesn't the UK have mass shootings?

Perhaps one day we'll get better at psychology and psychiatry and be able to identify and help those who are threats to themselves and others before they act but it does not appear that there are any suitable near term mental health options to turn to that will provide significant answers to our mass shooting problem.

I don't think we can stop gun homicides or suicides, but I do think from the limited available evidence that we can significantly reduce the mass shootings problem by taking the worst of the mass shooting tools out of the equation.

I live in the local area. I own firearms. I hunt. I have significant military training in the use of firearms. I no longer believe, given the mass shootings problem, there is sufficient justification for the civilian ownership of semi-automatic firearms.

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24 Feb 2018 13:22 #240 by ramage
FNP,
To clarify, you would ban all semi-automatic firearms including shotguns and pistols?

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