Are we headed for a double dip recession?

The Viking wrote: It started under Bush but Obama just made it much worse and is making sure it will dip again and last a lot longer. Steve Forbes was on today and said had Obama not done anything, that this recession would be in full recovery by now.

If Steve Forbes really said that he is smoking crack. No way can there be any kind of recovery until the credit bubble is fully deflated. And if Obama had "done nothing" the housing market would have crashed even farther and most of the biggest banks would have evaporated. We'd probably be seeing cities in smoking ruins by now. That's not to say I think we need to continue with this path, because it is too risky and may spark hyperinflation. But seriously, anyone who thinks everything would be just fine by now if not for Obama has his butt for a brain.

The Viking wrote:

RenegadeCJ wrote:

Scruffy wrote: I think we are still not out of Bush's recession.

And this is exactly why nothing of any worth will be done. The republicans are sitting on their hands because they have no power. The democrats are sticking their heads in the sand because they can't admit they are part of the problem, and want to "blame Bush", in order to attempt to stay in power.

The OP said nothing about this being Obama's problem...just that there IS a problem.

What should be done? Who cares who started it (IMHO, it is ALL politicians fault).

Exactly. I never said anything about Obama. Just asked a question. But many Liberals are programed to just throw that 'Bush's fault' line out there all the time to try and avoid talking about the issue. I am use to it, but you are right, it gets nothing accomplished.

You said "Are we headed for another recession?" I answered that we are not yet out of this recession.

Perhaps you should have asked "Are we headed for a depression?" Or maybe "Did we dodge a depression and are now merely headed for a longer recession?"

The Viking wrote:

AspenValley wrote:

RenegadeCJ wrote:

Scruffy wrote: I think we are still not out of Bush's recession.

And this is exactly why nothing of any worth will be done. The republicans are sitting on their hands because they have no power. The democrats are sticking their heads in the sand because they can't admit they are part of the problem, and want to "blame Bush", in order to attempt to stay in power.

The OP said nothing about this being Obama's problem...just that there IS a problem.

What should be done? Who cares who started it (IMHO, it is ALL politicians fault).

I agree with you that partisan bickering over this isn't helping matters. But I don't agree that it is a political problem, so I don't really see how there can be a political solution.

I understand why both Bush and Obama pushed for bailouts and stimulus but now that we see that isn't working, what next?

Lower taxes for all and get the money back in the consumers pockets. Just like Bush did that made the Clinton recession the shollowest in history even with the 9/11 attack.

Last I heard those "lower taxes" were in effect for most of the Bush administration and they didn't prevent this collapse. How on earth do you think they could reverse it?

I am not a big fan of high tax rates and am pretty conservative about government spending, but this belief that lower taxes are the cure for every ill is like believing you can cure cancer by eating sunflower seeds.

Scruffy wrote:

The Viking wrote:

RenegadeCJ wrote:

Scruffy wrote: I think we are still not out of Bush's recession.

And this is exactly why nothing of any worth will be done. The republicans are sitting on their hands because they have no power. The democrats are sticking their heads in the sand because they can't admit they are part of the problem, and want to "blame Bush", in order to attempt to stay in power.

The OP said nothing about this being Obama's problem...just that there IS a problem.

What should be done? Who cares who started it (IMHO, it is ALL politicians fault).

Exactly. I never said anything about Obama. Just asked a question. But many Liberals are programed to just throw that 'Bush's fault' line out there all the time to try and avoid talking about the issue. I am use to it, but you are right, it gets nothing accomplished.

You said "Are we headed for another recession?" I answered that we are not yet out of this recession.

Perhaps you should have asked "Are we headed for a depression?" Or maybe "Did we dodge a depression and are now merely headed for a longer recession?"

I changed the title to a double dip recession. Because according to obama several months ago, we were out of the recesssion thanks to the stimulus package. Well, I agree that we could have been out of it if it had not been for the stimuls and other very bad bills.

AspenValley wrote:

The Viking wrote:

AspenValley wrote:

RenegadeCJ wrote:

Scruffy wrote: I think we are still not out of Bush's recession.

And this is exactly why nothing of any worth will be done. The republicans are sitting on their hands because they have no power. The democrats are sticking their heads in the sand because they can't admit they are part of the problem, and want to "blame Bush", in order to attempt to stay in power.

The OP said nothing about this being Obama's problem...just that there IS a problem.

What should be done? Who cares who started it (IMHO, it is ALL politicians fault).

I agree with you that partisan bickering over this isn't helping matters. But I don't agree that it is a political problem, so I don't really see how there can be a political solution.

I understand why both Bush and Obama pushed for bailouts and stimulus but now that we see that isn't working, what next?

Lower taxes for all and get the money back in the consumers pockets. Just like Bush did that made the Clinton recession the shollowest in history even with the 9/11 attack.

Last I heard those "lower taxes" were in effect for most of the Bush administration and they didn't prevent this collapse. How on earth do you think they could reverse it?

I am not a big fan of high tax rates and am pretty conservative about government spending, but this belief that lower taxes are the cure for every ill is like believing you can cure cancer by eating sunflower seeds.

Of course they worked. They pulled us out of the 2000 recession quickly and kept us growing jobs for 5 years after the 9/11 attacks up until late 2007 when the deregulation of housing finally came home to roost. No way could those tax cuts have prevented that.

The Viking wrote:

AspenValley wrote:

The Viking wrote:

AspenValley wrote:

RenegadeCJ wrote:

Scruffy wrote: I think we are still not out of Bush's recession.

And this is exactly why nothing of any worth will be done. The republicans are sitting on their hands because they have no power. The democrats are sticking their heads in the sand because they can't admit they are part of the problem, and want to "blame Bush", in order to attempt to stay in power.

The OP said nothing about this being Obama's problem...just that there IS a problem.

What should be done? Who cares who started it (IMHO, it is ALL politicians fault).

I agree with you that partisan bickering over this isn't helping matters. But I don't agree that it is a political problem, so I don't really see how there can be a political solution.

I understand why both Bush and Obama pushed for bailouts and stimulus but now that we see that isn't working, what next?

Lower taxes for all and get the money back in the consumers pockets. Just like Bush did that made the Clinton recession the shollowest in history even with the 9/11 attack.

Last I heard those "lower taxes" were in effect for most of the Bush administration and they didn't prevent this collapse. How on earth do you think they could reverse it?

I am not a big fan of high tax rates and am pretty conservative about government spending, but this belief that lower taxes are the cure for every ill is like believing you can cure cancer by eating sunflower seeds.

Of course they worked. They pulled us out of the 2000 recession quickly and kept us growing jobs for 5 years after the 9/11 attacks up until late 2007 when the deregulation of housing finally came home to roost. No way could those tax cuts have prevented that.

I didn't ask you if tax cuts "worked" in 2000. (And I would argue that you are giving the tax cuts way more credit than they deserve, the economy actually was terribly sluggish in terms of job growth ALL THROUGH the Bush years.)

But never mind that... what I ASKED was how you thought extending tax cuts to the upper 1% (they are staying in place for everyone else) could reverse the economic collapse when they couldn't even prevent it?

AspenValley wrote:

The Viking wrote: Of course they worked. They pulled us out of the 2000 recession quickly and kept us growing jobs for 5 years after the 9/11 attacks up until late 2007 when the deregulation of housing finally came home to roost. No way could those tax cuts have prevented that.

I didn't ask you if tax cuts "worked" in 2000. (And I would argue that you are giving the tax cuts way more credit than they deserve, the economy actually was terribly sluggish in terms of job growth ALL THROUGH the Bush years.)

But never mind that... what I ASKED was how you thought extending tax cuts to the upper 1% (they are staying in place for everyone else) could reverse the economic collapse when they couldn't even prevent it?

The top 3% employ 70% of the country. So if you raise their taxes they can't hire and will have to lay off. I don't see the logic in that.

And the tax cuts under bush worked great! They 'saved or created' over 5 million jobs. (now I see why obmaa likes it) Heck I 'saved or created' over 500 jobs during the Bush years. (you don't have to be able to prove it right? )

It started under Bush but Obama just made it much worse and is making sure it will dip again and last a lot longer. Steve Forbes was on today and said had Obama not done anything, that this recession would be in full recovery by now. But because no businesses trust all the new policies, they are not hiring. They are waiting to see what happens when they kick in. And so far it has been all bad. Thus the double dip recession. The economy was coming back without the stimulus. We were back up to 5% GDP and unemployment had plateued and was starting to come down. Now with all the crap that has been signed, it is probably heading up again and going to stick around a while. And heaven help our economy when businesses are forced to supply health insurance even when they can't afford it. Layoffs like crazy are coming then unless they can repeal it and start it over and do it right. And when all of our health care costs go up, we will have a lot less to spend and put back into the economy, so much higher deficits will continue for years to come unless we can reverse some of these policies.

Another Recession? I think it's the same one - prolonged and made worse by bad government policy. Not to mention an administration who is doing everything it can to destroy small businesses. Many businesses like the one I work for are waiting to hire because they just don't know what the impacts of this massive health care bill will do to us.

We also have a continous threat of a cap & trade energy tax bill that would crush almost every type of business - and about 100 tax breaks that will expire at the end of the year. Most of them will not be extended by the democrats - this will start do drag on the economy next year. Businesses are scared - and capitol is on strike.

Capitol is on strike!
They are not out holding up picket signs - but everywhere I go to get my investment news - investors are saying they will not invest in this climate. I am one of them - holding onto cash and waiting for 2012. If things don't change for the better - I'll hold on for 2016. I will not invest in a socialist America. Many banks will not loan money for the same reasons - they are on strike.

This is what it looks like when the Feds threaten business! This is what it looks like when policy is out to get those who produce. It dosn't get any better - it gets worse when you bad mouth the free market, and "re-distribute" wealth.

Here's what the economy is really doing.....

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Economy-Caught-in-Depression-cnbc-1972685111.html?x=0&.v=1http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Economy-Caught-in-Depression-cnbc-1972685111.html?x=0&.v=1&sec=topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=

The left just keeps laughing, OK but remember we are all in this - and the left will sink along with the right. Trillions of private dollars are waiting, just waiting. When the tide of inflation hit us - those dollars will flow to protect against inflation - nothing else.
The days of big government spending and welfare state entitlement programs is just about over - one way or another!

The Viking wrote: The top 3% employ 70% of the country. So if you raise their taxes they can't hire and will have to lay off. I don't see the logic in that.

Once more, reallllllllll slow.

How is continuing the tax cuts (that have been in effect now for almost ten years and didn't do squat to prevent economic collapse nor rebound us out of it) supposed to do what it has so far failed to do?

(I am not even going to bother going into a long explanation of why raising PERSONAL income tax rates has almost no effect on employment since most employees are employed by CORPORATIONS not INDIVIDUALS, because it is plain that that the "Lower taxes on rich people means the working class will benefit" meme is obviously surgically embedded in your head.)

I would agree that we are still in the same economic downturn, or it has not ended. Jobs are slim to none locally and have been since around 08. Land and home values seem to be at around 50-75% of where they were 3 years ago and continuing to not sell or drop in price.

What should we do/will we do...

I agree that there is gridlock in many ways so things will move slowly.

So we will do next to nothing and there will be some suffering. Taxes will go up slowly and services will be cut slowly, as people can negotiate.

We had some really good times for many years, there has to be a flipside, it cannot all be mitigated by any policy except acceptance of time. Just keep living, just live with less.

Personally I don't think this is a double dip or I think we are sitting on the continental shelf moving out to sea. This is just the beginning.

I will feel secure when our economy is again based on our labor (the type that produces sweat) and extraction of our resources (preferably renewable). This will happen, one way or another, in time. You cannot base an economy on a bunch of people sitting in offices processing paper and thinking about things or checking people into a hotel. Yes we need some of this, but it should by no means be most of us. Right now it feels like that is most of us.