Batteries Are Not The Future of Green Cars, says Tesla chief

25 Mar 2011 09:18 #1 by ScienceChic
http://www.grist.org/article/2011-03-24 ... st-guy-in-
Batteries are not the future of green cars, says smartest guy in room
BY Christopher Mims
25 MAR 2011

Elon Musk is a dizzyingly accomplished badass as well as a quirky workaholic, which makes him kind of like Nikola Tesla minus the full-contact pigeon fancying. And hey, that's exactly what he named his electric automobile company, Tesla Motors. Musk, who has built Tesla's entire business on the advanced, computer-controlled battery technology his engineers developed for the Tesla Roadster sports car, thinks that batteries are kaput in the long run.

In their place, he's betting on a technology called ultracapacitors. Capacitors are totally different than batteries -- rather than being buckets of wet chemicals, they're solid state devices already ubiquitous in today's consumer electronics. Ultracapacitors are just giant, super energy-dense versions of their smaller antecedents, and they should be able to charge and discharge much more quickly than today's batteries, which will be critical for topping off electric cars in a manner that in any way resembles our current habit of filling up at the gas station.

Read more here: http://gigaom.com/cleantech/tesla-ceo-i ... batteries/
Thoughts?

Joe? Are ya here buddy? Would love to hear your opinion?

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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25 Mar 2011 14:21 #2 by deltamrey
Of course energy stored in a capacitor can be retrieved by "bleeding" the current (actually voltage) off..........BUT, new materials capable of storing large amounts of energy in a small volume are yet to be developed. Not in my lifetime.

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25 Mar 2011 14:31 #3 by ScienceChic
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2 ... tml?ref=hp
A Battery That Charges in Seconds
by Edwin Cartlidge on 23 March 2011

Imagine being able to charge your cell phone in a matter of seconds or your laptop in a few minutes. That might soon be possible, thanks to a new kind of nanostructured battery electrode developed by scientists at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.

Electrical storage devices known as capacitors charge and discharge very quickly, but because they hold their charge on the surface of metal plates, their storage capacity is limited. Batteries, on the other hand, can store much more energy because they hold their charge inside the bulk of a material, usually an oxide or a phosphate compound located inside the cathode. Unfortunately, because these materials are not good conductors of electric charge, it takes a long time to get the charge in or out of a battery.

Scientists have tried to get around this problem in the past by adding electrical conductors to the energy-storage material, but this reduces the material’s volume, so it tends to lower the battery’s capacity. University of Illinois materials scientist Paul Braun and his colleagues came up with a novel solution, published online this month in Nature Nanotechnology. http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/vao ... 11.38.html They built a tiny metal lattice with so many nooks and crannies that when it’s filled with a charge-storage material, the electrons in the material never have far to go before reaching the metal and being conducted away.

Braun and his co-workers found that the lithium-ion battery could charge and discharge between 10 and 100 times more quickly than the fastest devices on the market today. Its storage capacity was actually slightly larger than normal (by about 10% to 20%). And because every step of their manufacturing process is used in industry today, the researchers say there should be no major problems with incorporating their cathodes into commercial batteries. They just need to show how to scale up their technology—so far they’ve tried it only on watch-size batteries. “I have every reason to believe we can scale up,” says Braun, “and we are looking to partner with the right people to do that.”

However, materials scientist Yury Gogotsi of Drexel University in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, sounds a note of caution. Although he says the latest work shows the importance of a smart electrode design that uses common materials, he questions how long the batteries can withstand continued charging and recharging over such short intervals. He is also less sanguine about scaling up.


"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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25 Mar 2011 19:37 #4 by pineinthegrass
I don't get it.

We've had the flux capacitor in cars at least since 1985.



And they go for just $250.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/collectibles/9fc6/?cpg=clrss

Tesla is way behind the times. Glad they are catching up! :biggrin:

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25 Mar 2011 20:05 #5 by Wily Fox aka Angela
I found your initial link intriguing, SC... so I sent it over to the hubby. He designs and manufactures high power amplifiers for audio gear and I was interested in his opinion of capacitors since they play a key role in amplifiers. Here is his reply:

Capacitors have some very major advantages over batteries:

1) They can be charged and discharged almost instantly. Batteries take hours to charge and are limited in how fast they can discharge.

2) Capacitors can handle billions of charge/discharge cycles without wearing out. Batteries can withstand only about a thousand cycles before they are shot.

3) Capacitors are much lighter than batteries.


But batteries have one huge advantage over batteries: They have a much greater energy density. This means that you can store much more energy in the space occupied by batteries than you can in the same space occupied by capacitors. When you consider that batteries have vastly less energy density than gasoline and this poor energy density is what is killing battery usage in vehicles, it would appear that using capacitors for energy storage is a hopeless situation.

Capacitors have other problems as well:

2) They are very poor at holding a charge. I other words, they "leak" electricity badly. Most capacitors will self-discharge in less than a day.

3) Capacitors are expensive.

Of course, there could be some major breakthroughs in capacitor design that could change all this. But until such time as that happens, if it happens, capacitors are totally unsuitable for cars.

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25 Mar 2011 22:09 #6 by ScienceChic
Wily - awesome, thanks for sharing (with the hubby and with us!)! Yes, he's right about the storage/energy density problem; hence, my second article about the nanostructured capacitors. If they can create a capacitor that is more like a battery, then we get the best of both worlds. The question is, can it be scaled up to large enough for a car (the published paper made a tiny watch-size model), and would it be cost-effective? How long would it function/how many discharges and recharges could it withstand?

Elon Musk is no idiot, so when he says this is the future, I pay attention. However, he is also trying to sell an electric car that currently is attractive to only a small portion of consumers...so is he likely to say something like this to boost interest? Despite the fact that electric cars coming out have a range of up to 300 miles, and certainly enough for most daily driving for 90% of us, the fact that it takes hours to recharge (and makes one feel trapped at that thought) is a major turn-off. If they could find something that would overcome that problem so we can go back to our hectic, always-on-the-go lifestyle it will go a long ways. I don't jump on the bandwagon of an unproven technology, so I would love to have some of those questions answered (by anyone, anytime - I'm patient!) above before getting too excited!

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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26 Mar 2011 08:49 #7 by LOL
Super caps have been around awhile, I haven't seen them used much in real applications. They generally are used with batteries, not as a replacement. Advantages are quick energy release and storage for starting, accel and decel.

Tesla CEO is probably just tooting his horn to get attention, thats what CEOs do. I want to hear it from an engineer!

Here is a good summary of the Super Cap.

http://www.supercapacitors.org/

Looks like the military and some car companies are testing them.

But I don't think its a silver bullet to replace batteries. Its still a storage device not an energy source.

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