The Right to Earn a Living

AspenValley wrote:

Kate wrote:

Local_Historian wrote: Dang it, lost my post. So the short and sweet of it. Interior dsigners need libaility insurance, equal to that of doctors, because so many people sue when they don't like the design, and it can be over one literally minor detail, like an indeciperable difference in paint color, or an lamp that is not just perfect, or even worse. They also get to sue for pain and suffering, and they win.

Licensing gives the designer a leg to stand on, declares them a a professional, helps sawy thw judge to their side, especially with the level of documentation they are suggesting a designer have today. If you can prove that client specifically demanded that ugly lamp and now they don't like it, too bad. Being licensed also drops the rates for the liability insurance to a rate of just indentured servitude, not abject slavery.

I can see suing a plumber or electrician or doctor for faulty work - each could cost lives and loss. But suing for pain and suffering over a paint color? I don't get it.

I also have yet to hear of any farm hand getting sued for a pig getting loose, or rats geting into the corn.

Do you have a real world example of a client suing an interior designer over a paint color or lamp selection?

Personally, I do think that interior designers pushed for legislation for licensure just to protect their jobs and used the specter of structural wall removal as a scare tactic.

Yep. It's usually a group of people who want to protect their industry as a near-monopoly that push for licensure, and they invariably use worst-case scenario examples to persuade legislatures to do that for them.

I think licensure for professions that have public safety in mind is a good idea, like engineers, architects, doctors, etc. Not so sure about other professions, like hair stylists or interior designers. I remember hearing years ago that the reason hair cutters got their license bill pushed through legislatures was that they were inspecting heads for lice and disease - a public health issue?

Rockdoc Franz wrote: Let's cut to the chase. We all know how to overstate case to make a point. Will a licensing requirement keep people from working? I do not think so, so long as they are aware of the avenues available to getting licensed.

I agree.

Kate wrote: I don't think that interior designers are getting the lighting, electrical, heating etc. training that you think they are getting. I know some of them and it's pretty much all picking colors, ceramic tile, furniture and drapes. Architects get training in those technical areas (plus structural stuff,) but not interior designers.

So are you telling me my daughter is lying about her coursework when she calls and talks what is basically gibberish to me about her arcitectural classes, and about the whole semester lighting and electronics classes? She talked it to my dad, and he gets it, but he works with electricity and wiring and machinery.

I see you have done your training in the last five years, in a course of study that REQUIRES four years, and well as a severe jurying process to even be admitted? In the last three years, nearly every school that teaches interior design has started requiring their students to take the same code classes that architects take, because a licensed interior designer can ALSO design a whole building up to certain size. (she knows but is not available to ask right now)

My daughter attends one of the top 25 interior design programs in the country, had has 1/3 of her courseload focused on architecture. She is in a program that only admits 60 new students per year, with an applicant pool over over 300 per year.

But clearly we both have no clue about her future career.

I pay better attention to what my kids are doing than that. But nice job assuming I'm being VL and talking out my butt.

I didn't know that interior design classes had changed so much, LH. My apologies - I did not intend to insult you or your daughter. My comments were made from my personal knowledge of courses a long time ago.

I don't tend to talk about stuff I know nothing about. I'm not VL, and I would have thought that clear by now.

Yes, interior design in the 80s and 90s is NOTHING like today's program.

We do not need licenses for most or really any fields. Especially if those issuing the licenses will not take responsibility for the evaluation that you trust. We provide free public education to the point where anyone can know to ask the right questions or hire another expert to help them. The gov is not an expert in these things and should not be licensing anyone...and anyone inspecting or licensing for the gov was obviously not at the top of their field or they would still be working and succeeding in it. And if you only got trained in licensing and inspecting and never actually worked in the field, let alone did a stellar job in it, you have no place judging anyone or building faith in anyone.

What licenses do most of all (besides cost jobs and more importantly opportunities) is is turns people into idiots. If you think you are safer because someone you hire is licensed, then you are just not paying attention. Take park county, where it costs 20-100% more to build a house because of the licensing agency. It is easy to get a license, it is easy to get a permit and you can fake just about any inspection you want and cut all kinds of corners, you do not even need to be in good.

I think before people just generically say that the government qualifying people is good, they need to talk about the specific process of licensing for that field.

If we are going to license anyone that can have an impact on our lives, would it not make sense to have a license in order to be elected in the legislature? Most would say no because we vote...but we vote for everyone we hire, just there is only one vote, yours...it is called a choice. Go ahead and make one.

Or even better, just let people know that licensing exists and make it optional. For stupid people, they can use the one shot license to evaluate people and the rest of us that still think can actually interview people, check references and hire experts that work hard for us. The gov does not do any of those things when they license you in most professions and most of all they do not stand behind their evaluation. If you made the inspectors 50% liable for anyone they licensed and inspected...then you could start to assume that the person may be exemplary, otherwise you just created a good old boys club for those that cant perform up to par, so that they can judge those that can (and can't but we will only know now from experience).

Just more big gov cause it feels good, just like all the stuff we bought with the national and local debt. Let me know how much that helps you in 10 years or how it feels to have paid way more for your house in Park county because John Logan looked at it and licensed your builder. Let's not forget that eventually these regs keep you from doing work yourself and taking care of your own family without outside help. In Fort Collins a landlord is BARRED from doing any work on property they own....but that is the key to making money as a landlord, not hiring everyone to do stuff for you.

Licenses are just another way to tax you, cause you think it is helping. I think Park County exemplifies how much public resources can be devoted to inspections and licensing with a return far less than that invested. We spend $300-500k a year in permits alone for building and then all buildings cost another 20-100%, resulting in millions spent each year, just to keep a a couple houses from burning down...and then they still burn down and blow up and the inspectors are not even responsible??? Oh, and then if you have an old house with 1000 violations, that's fine....for now, but they did make that new maint code so maybe it is just a matter of when you piss the wrong person off before you are kicked out of your existing home, we all know that peeling paint is illegal in Park, $50 a day fine.

Just more gov. for those that love gov. because it is easier than thinking and working hard....for now. It will all work out in the end. There is no money left for these stupid processes, it is time to take responsibility for your own actions and hires. You do not need the govt for this, we made it up to about 30 years ago without them...and how much have things gotten better in the last 30 years via gov spending and mgt. Most in park seem to hate their govt and most places with minimal govt have nothing to hate or even gripe about...hmmmm but licensing sounds good, lets just do it regardless of the cost, like everything else in gov.

Interior designers are artists, anyone whose kid is studying it needs to accept this. Most architects are only one step closer to technitions and most do know how to build a house if you handed them all the tools and materials for free. I have worked with dozens of people from both fields on multimillion dollar projects. The average 2 dogs and a pickup carpenter can provide you more value and experience...but they will not be artistic, perhaps. Most interior designers, in my experience, are hired as status symbols and most don't do what the customers like because of their perceived status. Also anyone hiring an interior designer, typically has the resources to hire an expert in the appropriate field to make sure their furniture arranger does not start thinking she even remotely has the expertise to wire a box or decide which walls to remove. Interior designers are not architects, and architects are barely what you think they are. The average architect made less than the average carpenter before the bubble and now they are both sitting at home posting on the internet because they both have no work. Maybe if we add a few more licenses we would get them out there making money?

Also if people who are studying ID want to be architects, would it not be easier to study that field than to try and pretend that interior Design is more than artistic arranging of things in space? It is not a technical field and most cannot even discuss things on that level. It is a luxury consulting field, not a critical element of anything. It is the product of having rich people in status battles. I say this from much experience, not just watching soap operas or thinking that I need to protect all my stupid neighbors from anyone.

Another thing to consider is that licensing and inspection are redundant. If an poorly educated interior designer moves a load bearing wall, because she did not understand structure, but her customer actually thought she was supposed to because some idiot downtown got paid off, is it not inspected in the more socialist areas like Park County and Florida. The inspector should have caught the wall during one of the 4 inspections of that wall and the permit you even needed to take it down. In a place with no lic or inspection, well they know that you don't move such walls or they don't care what happens, because at least THEY still own their house in stead of their neighbors and local officials. I think I would like to keep owning my own house and don't need your help to keep it up or build it.

How about if Park County licensed someone (which they showed to a client to build faith and get a job) and they even fail one inspection, there is a licensing fine to the building department for doing a poor job of licensing and pulling the wool over the public. These are all really just money and power games and have little or nothing to do with your safety. Some states like NH don't even really pretend that it is not about money. They collect all the fees like around here, but them rarely inspect. At least they are honest.

posteryoyo wrote: Also if people who are studying ID want to be architects, would it not be easier to study that field than to try and pretend that interior Design is more than artistic arranging of things in space? It is not a technical field and most cannot even discuss things on that level. It is a luxury consulting field, not a critical element of anything. It is the product of having rich people in status battles. I say this from much experience, not just watching soap operas or thinking that I need to protect all my stupid neighbors from anyone.

Another thing to consider is that licensing and inspection are redundant. If an poorly educated interior designer moves a load bearing wall, because she did not understand structure, but her customer actually thought she was supposed to because some idiot downtown got paid off, is it not inspected in the more socialist areas like Park County and Florida. The inspector should have caught the wall during one of the 4 inspections of that wall and the permit you even needed to take it down. In a place with no lic or inspection, well they know that you don't move such walls or they don't care what happens, because at least THEY still own their house in stead of their neighbors and local officials. I think I would like to keep owning my own house and don't need your help to keep it up or build it.

How about if Park County licensed someone (which they showed to a client to build faith and get a job) and they even fail one inspection, there is a licensing fine to the building department for doing a poor job of licensing and pulling the wool over the public. These are all really just money and power games and have little or nothing to do with your safety. Some states like NH don't even really pretend that it is not about money. They collect all the fees like around here, but them rarely inspect. At least they are honest.

That is certainly an interesting perspective. I would offer this. As a consulting geologist it behooves me to be licensed. The testing is done not by the government but by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists. People, who have worked in the industry evaluate your expertise.

If there is one thing I have learned in 30 years of working in the industry, is that you become a far more valuable worker when you gain knowledge in related fields within the industry, specifically petroleum engineering and geophysics for me. Your ability to communicate and do useful interdisciplinary work improves, not to mention growth in your own field since you end up looking at things with a newfound perspective. The same applies to every endeavor. Will it hurt me to know about material strengths as a carpenter or iron worker? NO. It will only make me better. The licensing method you envision is flawed. If you want a real and obviously good working model, then study the proven practice in Germany. It's not just some government lackey passing out a license. Also, once someone gains a license, it is not a carte blanche pass from evaluation. It simply means that there is a minimum core of expertise.

Woodworking is a hobby for me. I've read much, practiced a bunch, worked as a cabinet maker, but I'm not qualified as a master cabinet maker. If I compare my knowledge and ability to that of a licensed master cabinet maker in Germany, I'm a joke of a cabinet maker. Yet, in the US my skills are deemed very good. This is the difference I see. There are lots of cabinet makers like me in the US who make a living as professionals. The work results you get run the gamut from excellent to shoddy. You simply don't see that crap from licensed professionals in Germany. As I stated before, they train not only in their chosen fields but also in fields that are related. Interior designers receive training in architecture, so that they have better insight into what their concepts may have on the building as a whole. I imagine they will need to have insight into material science too as you do not want electrolysis in your kitchen should you place copper hood above a stove and then attach wrought iron hangers to it without isolating them at points of contact. Similarly, you would not want to have iron in oak furniture because the tannin activity of oak. It's good to have a breath of knowledge, you only get better with it.

wow.

We don't need licensed professionals? If that were true, my electricity would have been upgraded four years ago, because that us something spouse and I have the knowledge to do. However, the insurance company requires a licensed professional to do it or they cut us off permanently.

You can believe what you like, about this whole deal, but I'd rather have someone who is proven to have the skills working on my house than some halfwit doing it. We've cleaned up several messes that DIYers have done in our past two houses; they should have hired someone with a proven clue.

It all depends on the industry...if it were up to the power hungry government , we would have to get a license to mow our own yard (after the mower was emmission tested of course), or a license to ride a bicycle on a city street (after a training course and crash simulation classes).

I get services done through referrals from people I know and trust, oor I do my homework. A license or certification is nice, but it says nothing about the person's performance. The best mechanic I ever had learned on his own with zero schooling or certification.