President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize

Let's see. In the 62 years that Israel has been a nation, it has:

- the second largest number of start-up companies in the world (after the U.S.)
- the largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies outside of North America
- ranked 1st in the world in expenditure on Research and Development (R&D) as a percentage of GDP
- the highest number of museums per capita in the world
- eight public universities in a country that is slightly smaller in size than New Jersey, with about 97% literacy rate
- 190 nature reserves in a country
- ranked 2nd among 20 top countries in space sciences by Thomson Reuters agency
- indigenously designed and built at least 13 commercial, research and spy satellites, some of which are ranked among the world's most advanced space systems
- ranked 17th among of the world's most economically developed nations
- ranked first as the world's most durable economy in the face of crises, and was also ranked first in the rate of research and development center investments.
Purchasing power rank in the world: 27th
Population: 7.6 million (less than the population of New York City)
Almost 20% of Israel's population is Arab. 1,579,700 Arabs and Druze live in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

Compare this to the nations bordering Israel:

Lebanon, a nation for 67 years:

- 17 public and private universities in a country 2/3 the size of Connecticut, with 87% literacy rate among population
- 6 nature reserves
Purchasing power rank in the world: 87th
Population: 4.1 million
95% of the population is Arab Muslim. 4% is Armenian, 1% is 'other.'

Syria, a nation for 64 years:

- peak of 600,000 barrels of oil/day in 1995 to 425,000 barrels in 2005
- 150,000 enrolled in post-secondary education in the country, with 90% literacy rate among men and 82% among women
Population: 22.2 million in a nation that is slightly larger than North Dakota.
Purchasing power rank in the world: 67th
87% of the population is Muslim, 10% is Christian, 3% Druze. There are 41 Israeli settlements and civilian land use sites in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights (2010 est.) that Israel won after Arab-instigated conflicts.

Jordan, a nation for 90 years:

- 11th highest standard of living in the developing world, and the second highest standard of living in the Arab and Muslim World
- ranked as the third most industrialized economy in the Middle East and North Africa, behind Turkey and Kuwait
- a noticeably clean country with an extremely low crime rate by both regional and international standards
- 89% of its citizens have healthcare coverage
- 26 universities and 54 community colleges, with a literacy rate of 95% for men and 85% for women
Purchasing power rank in the world: 103rd
Population: 6.5 million, with 92% Muslim, 6% Christian, 2% other, in a nation slightly smaller than Indiana.

Egypt, a nation for 89 years:

Population: 82 million people in a country the size of Texas and California combined
90% identify themselves as Muslim, 10% as Coptic/Christian, with a literacy rate of 83% for men and 59% for women.
Purchasing power rank in the world: ties with Israel, at 27th

(Sources: Wikipedia, CIA World Factbook) I'd really like to list all the great things these neighboring countries have done to compete with Israel's record of achievement... but unfortunately, there is nothing to report.

One-fifth of Israel's population is Arab - a larger percentage of Muslim residents than any Muslim nation allows in Jewish residents. So explain to me: why should Israel have to tolerate any sort of giveaway with the neighboring Muslims (especially since Israel is obviously more tolerant of Islam within its borders than any Muslim nation is of Judaism? It's absolutely beyond me how anyone can demand that Palestinians be given Israeli land. While the Muslims have been fighting amongst themselves and with Israel for the past 67 years - and losing! - Israel has been focusing on developing itself as a global presence.

How about if we start expecting Muslim nations to step up to the plate? They've got the oil money. They've got the same arid landscape that Israel has had to work with. With so many millions of Muslims on the planet - and many, many wealthy Muslims, around the world - and so many more Muslims than there are Jews, why can't they help their own? Because to do that, they must, as a people, focus on peace, prosperity, and tolerance - and that is antithetical to Islam.

Stop making Israel pay for Islam's flaws. The Palestinians were usurped some 60 years ago - but it is up to their Muslim fellows to assimilate them, not Israel.

If I may share an observation, I would like to state my appreciation to all of the participants in this thread for being civil and staying on topic! This is the kind of thread I want to participate in!

I have arguments on both sides of the fence, at the same time I'll confess I have far less knowledge of this topic that Bailey Bud and others do. From the 10,000 foot view it occurs to me that the Palestinians rightfully resent the UN and the creation of Israel, I would be incensed if my family was forcefully evicted from land that has belonged to my family for centuries. On the other hand, the UN created Israel and the Jews occupied the land that they had been promised by the UN. Given the prosecution of the Jews by every civilization since the beginning of time I can partially understand why the Israelis cling to the land they have.

Otis ---

Lebanon and Syria (in particular) assured that Palestine would never be forgotten. They have refused to absorb or naturalize Palestinians (Jordan, Canada and the USA have done the most to absorb them) . Multiple generations have grown up in camps, with virtually no human rights. Meanwhile, Israel has consistently denied any "right to return" for families that were forced out.

What you end up with is an entire people group that is denied any citizenship in any state ("stateless people"). They have no rights - including rights to work, rights to inherit, rights to enjoy education, health, or housing. Meanwhile, most of the world shrugs, and says "Not my problem."

I believe Palestine has a right to statehood, and I believe that Palestinians have a right to be represented - as a nation, and people-group. I do not agree with Israel's consistent efforts to deny them their basic rights. I think statehood establishes a legitimate right to exist - and levels the playing field for subsequent negotiations/talks.

I am well aware of the accomplishments of Israel. I admire them. South Africa had similar accomplishments. It does not justify consistent marginalization and alienation of an entire people group.

Bailey Bud, thanks for the details. People without a flag and few or no rights must stand up for themselves, I can't refute that point.

So what about the Palestinians and their association with terrorists; defining who the terrorists are is all about what side you are on, I'm sure that the Palestinians see Israel and others as the terrorists (if I was in the same shoes I would too). I understand why some Palestinians feel justified in what they do to resist. One thing I can't comprehend is recruiting young boys and girls in to suicide bombings, I can't fathom anything that would motivate me to talk a 12 year old in to wearing a suicide vest and setting it off in a crowd. At the same time I have not been a member of a group of people who have been suppressed for so long that the martyrdom of children seems like a viable solution. I'll also confess that I'm a Lutheran who loosely practices my faith, maybe someone who is far more devout than me can make sense of the idea on a religious basis.

Part of (not all) what motivates terrorists is the systematic denial of basic human rights, and alienation. What do they have to lose?

There are some religious disputes - but that's not the entire issue, either (many Palestinians are Christian).

I'm not excusing the terrorists (I do not support Hamas or Hezbollah). I'm explaining why some people in Palestine might support them. The terrorist organizations are one of very few people that appear to support the people from Palestine.

(I support them, and many of my colleagues support them - with the hope that a more peaceful approach will be adopted).

As a Lutheran, you might be interested in the work of Rev Mitri Raheb.

I am an admirer of Sami Awad - a Christian from Bethlehem - who loves and respects the people of Israel --- but at the same time, insists that he has some legitimate rights as a human being.

http://samiawad.wordpress.com/2011/07/2 ... /#more-449

BB, thanks again for your insight. I imagine if I walked into a Southern Baptist church in the deep south of the United States and asked that every Klu Klux Klan member raise their hand no one would raise their hand (maybe not a good parallel example?), that doesn't mean there are no Klansmen in the congregation. For whatever reason those individuals can justify what they do in their own minds and in the organizations they form. I don't promote anything the KKK or white supremacists have to say or anything they believe in but because I am a conservative and a Republican I get painted with the same brush.

I will do some research in to what Rev. Mitri Raheb and Sami Awad have to say, I'm hopeful they both have some enlightening perspectives on this topic. Above all, thanks for your frank and open discussion of this topic, it could have so easily taken a left turn into the unproductive, name calling diatribe that too many threads on this site quickly devolve into.

bailey bud wrote: Otis ---

Lebanon and Syria (in particular) assured that Palestine would never be forgotten. They have refused to absorb or naturalize Palestinians (Jordan, Canada and the USA have done the most to absorb them) . Multiple generations have grown up in camps, with virtually no human rights. Meanwhile, Israel has consistently denied any "right to return" for families that were forced out.

What you end up with is an entire people group that is denied any citizenship in any state ("stateless people"). They have no rights - including rights to work, rights to inherit, rights to enjoy education, health, or housing. Meanwhile, most of the world shrugs, and says "Not my problem."

I believe Palestine has a right to statehood, and I believe that Palestinians have a right to be represented - as a nation, and people-group. I do not agree with Israel's consistent efforts to deny them their basic rights. I think statehood establishes a legitimate right to exist - and levels the playing field for subsequent negotiations/talks.

I am well aware of the accomplishments of Israel. I admire them. South Africa had similar accomplishments. It does not justify consistent marginalization and alienation of an entire people group.

Still, Bailey Bud, you haven't answered my question: why should Israel be expected to produce the solution for Palestinians, when it has already done more to accommodate a sizable Muslim population than any Muslim state has done for non-Israeli Jews? There are enough Muslim nations in the region that they can accommodate a slice of their Muslim pie for the Palestinians. All of these peoples have roamed all over this region for centuries and all are entitled to a permanent country. The Palestinian solution just doesn't have to come out of Israel's tiny hide.