What's stopping job creation? Too much regulation

LJ, I hope you like tea, cause you're going to be drinking lots of it in 2012, unlike your :Koolaid:

Corporations are indeed sitting on a LOT of money right now. I laugh my a## off when I hear the politicians cry for the "poor job creators". What a crock. You know where jobs will be created when they decide to create them? Not here, that's for sure. They'll send them overseas where they can employ 10-year-olds for 18 hours a day at 0.50/day and when the kid drops dead they can throw the body in a trash heap and bring in another. It's all about greed and making more profit. The regulations here that are "killing" them are the regulations our great-grandfathers fought and died for in the labor unions (who, imo are just as corrupt now as the politicians and their corporate pimps, but that's another rant).

Nope, no one owes me anything. I'll work until I can't work anymore and the I'll probably put a bullet in my head because I won't be able to afford health care (big profits to be had there, you know!). On the other hand, corporate greed has gone 'way over the top in this country, as has consumerism.

I don't know what the answer is, but complete deregulation is not it, imo.

You know, much as people want to make this a question of either/or, as in either we have regulations and they kill all the jobs or we don't have regulations and the lack of them kills all the employees, it really isn't.

Regulations are not uniformly "bad" nor do they come without a cost. Yep, we could probably create more jobs if there were no minimum wage and no safety regulations but would we all be happy to see an average wage in this country hovering around third world levels while we drive to work on collapsing bridges and eat food contaminated with who knows what?

Like anything else, there are trade-offs. It simply isn't true that we need to or should regulate everything (but who suggested we should?) nor is it true that eliminating all regulations would be the answer to everything.

As far as regulations being the "cause" of the unemployment rate, anyone willing to take off the partisan blinders is going to have to admit it simply isn't. We had near full employment not so very long ago, with very similar regulations to what are operative right now. While it's true that regulations don't promote job growth, neither do they stomp it out when there is consumer demand.

I really think that old capitalist Henry Ford had it right. He realized that unless his workers were earning enough to afford to buy one of his cars, he wasn't maximizing his profits. What's good for the capitalist CAN be good for the worker. Too bad today's capitalists don't seem to be nearly as smart as old Henry.

Well stated, AV.

As far as regulations being the "cause" of the unemployment rate, anyone willing to take off the partisan blinders is going to have to admit it simply isn't. We had near full employment not so very long ago, with very similar regulations to what are operative right now. While it's true that regulations don't promote job growth, neither do they stomp it out when there is consumer demand.

I think you are off base here- we do have far more regulations than just those few years ago when we had full employment. And guess what- they were a drag on the economy even when we did have full employment- and it gets worse every year. They add hundreds of new ones every year and they never get rid of any old outdated ones. At some point - it really hits us hard - and I think we have reached that "some point' now.

They certainly are not helping things- just now at a time when we need all the help we can get. If you think government can just keep going like this - adding more taxes, rules and regulations onto businesses without any effect- you are dead wrong. The same way government can't keep adding more laws and restrictions year after year and expect that it will not effect our freedom and liberty. At some point- right? At some point we are no longer free and at liberty any more.

Well- with the ever added regulations and the economic downturn combined- here we are- at that POINT.

Americans want to do business- we want to invest- but we are not dumb. The natural unimpeded path is for people to improve their standing in life- the natural path in the business world is to create more economic activity. Business wants to invest- they want to grow and make more money. They are not sitting on that cash fo no reason- it's because they see that not investing right now is the better move.

The whole world is not in our situation- most of the world is not in recession- most of the world is growing, investing and making money. It's our lousy political leadership and bad government that has us stuck where we are - along with some equally bad governments in Europe.

China is a good example of how a rapid de-regulated economy can grow and prosper. They have gone from dismal to supercharged in 25 years- and they did it by getting out of the way of investment and allowing business to operate. They now own our asses- how did that happen?

Don't complain about the 10 year old's being worked to death- that may be true- but you can't deny the economic powerhouse that was built in a very short time. I'm not saying that we should put children to work like China- I'm saying that the economic problems China had 30 years ago were entirely government generated.

All they had to do was unleash the potential that their citizens had all along- by getting out of their way.

And our government could do the same thing! If we can do that ONE thing- watch out- because America has the best entrepreneur spirit in the whole world.

You totally under estimate the affect that an over-regulated economy has on us- that's my point.

Your point is well taken - over regulation to me is as bad as no regulation at all. And I guess the logical next question is how to draw that line? It's a tough one...

China does indeed have a booming economy right now, but there are some real fissures in that facade. The government manipulation of the yuan is arguably a red flag. And that prosperity is pretty isolated. I know some folks who regularly visit China. The industrial cities are one thing, but the countryside is still in deep poverty - a BIG countryside. A lot of the industry has people working in unspeakable conditions - certainly not conditions Americans would work in. Then there's the issues of melamine in the baby formula, arsenic in this, cyanide in that. Sounds to me like they could use a little regulation.

Again, don't know what the answer is. I wish I did! My general feeling is that government intervention doesn't help with much of anything, but I don't believe a totally regulation-free market is the answer either. Tough question!

I disagree that I "underestimate" the impact of regulations. I think you overestimate them not because there is evidence the huge impact you claim, but because it suits your ideology to believe that.

I've been a self-employed entreprenuer most of my life. (You sound from your posts to be a corporate employee, do I have that right?) I do not feel crushed by regulations (that's not to say I ENJOY them!) nor have I noticed any of this huge increase in the number of them in the past couple of years that you claim is the problem with the economy. The problem from my point of view is 1) that lenders slammed shut credit availability for small business, even those with good credit and 2) extremely weak demand due to high unemployment, declining discretionary income, and economic trepidation. Not one of my clients who has cut back on their orders has ever said they did so because of "increased regulations". They're cutting back because their hours have been cut, their jobs and businesses have disappeared, or they are cutting back expenses and holding on to cash because they fear these same things getting even worse.

I also disagree with your obviously false idea that the rest of the world is just fine, it's only us who are in trouble, and the implication that it is all because a Democrat was elected to the White House. Don't you even read any news about what is going on in the world? The European Union, the largest economy in the world, is on the brink of complete collapse. China looks good superficially, but is itself balanced on several bubbles that are nigh onto bursting. Russia is a mess. Virtually all of these problems are caused by the same fundamental systemic trouble - we are running hard up against finite resources, even while we put our faith in economic systems that never heard of the term. That's also the underlying cause of the credit bubbles and other hanky-panky that brought our economy and those of the European Union down.

Lastly, I wonder if you have ever stopped to consider just how many of those regulations that are hurting business have actually been put in place at the REQUEST of larger businesses? Lobbyists just love to get Congress to pass things that will squash competition, don't you know? And that's at every level - federal, state, and local. In some states it's practically impossible to start a small business, but in spite of the fact that guys like you are going to scream that's all the fault of "liberals", why not take a look at who actually benefits by this? Look at how hard it is to start a taxi service or other small business in a big city and then try to find out who made it that way. 99 times out of a hundred, it was some established company with a monopoly that pushed for all the regulations", not some "do-gooder" as you would have us believe.

Lastly, the evidence does not support your contention that Americans have the "greatest entrepreuner spirit" in the world. Very few people in this country start businesses, and even fewer of them succeed at it for more than a year or two. Yet I see all the time immigrants from other countries starting up successful businesses from scratch. How does your "regulations cause all this" explain that fact? Immigrant or native-born, we're still subject to the same laws and regulations. Yet immigrants seem to be able to go ahead and build successful businesses anyway, and without all the whining that the government first needs to do their bidding and remove every obstacle, real or perceived, before they will even try.

And that prosperity is pretty isolated. I know some folks who regularly visit China. The industrial cities are one thing, but the countryside is still in deep poverty - a BIG countryside

Cydl- The chinese prosperity is very wide based- literally hundreds of millions of people have been lifted out of poverty in China. Yes the countryside is still in poverty- the kind of poverty that the ENTIRE country knew all too well just 25 years ago. I too know people who visit China- including my father who has been all over China as an energy consultant. I have also worked with Chinese engineers who go back home every year- one close friend tells me what's going on there.

The point I'm making is not about the details- it's about the big picture. They didn't go from dead broke to trillions in cash by maintaining a choke hold on the economy- as was the case before 1985. The meteoric rise in the economic power of China was accomplished by embracing free market principles- and allowing business to operate un-impeaded. The government remains communist- but the economy has been allowed to operate based on Capitalist economic theory.

That made all the difference in the world. A massive difference. China is now our biggest creditor- this fact can not be denied- or the way they were able to completely transform their economic condition. It's still a project in progress- and I expect that China will address those details you bring up as it's economic policy matures. Make no mistake- China's progress thus far is nothing short of a miracle.

China will evolve into a world class economic powerhouse due to it's rapid deregulation policy - and it's willingness to embrace the free market.

As for my experience aspenvalley - I have also been self employed. I have seen first hand the regulations that are keeping business from expanding - and profiting. I have been a developer- and a home builder. I've stuck my neck out there and invested my money- and I've profited on some- and lost on some.

I've started 4 businesses- 2 of them are still operating at a profit, even in this economy. I no longer develop land- gave that up and I'm out of the home speculation business- but my brother still operates that company.

The service company I started I gave up and sold to my partner when I got an offer to work for a pharmaceutical company in Boulder- I've experienced the effect of regulations in that industry. Did you know it takes almost 500 million dollars to go through a drug approval process at the FDA? Half a billion dollars! Wonder why your medications cost as much as they do- it taked a Billion dollars to produce and approve a drug in the USA- even a simple drug! We were producing an injectable (Ovarian cancer) drug at the place I worked for in Boulder- not so simple.

I'm now working for a corporation in the energy business. The effect of regulations in my current industry is nothing short of MASSIVE! That's all I can say- it's devastating- killing thousands of jobs. And you know what? I'm in the CLEAN energy business.

That's right- I have a green collar job. I'm not going into details because it's TMI- but rest assured- I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to regulations hurting the economy.

BearMtnHIB wrote:

The point I'm making is not about the details- it's about the big picture. They didn't go from dead broke to trillions in cash by maintaining a choke hold on the economy- as was the case before 1985. The meteoric rise in the economic power of China was accomplished by embracing free market principles- and allowing business to operate un-impeaded. The government remains communist- but the economy has been allowed to operate based on Capitalist economic theory.

That made all the difference in the world. A massive difference. China is now our biggest creditor- this fact can not be denied- or the way they were able to completely transform their economic condition. It's still a project in progress- and I expect that China will address those details you bring up as it's economic policy matures. Make no mistake- China's progress thus far is nothing short of a miracle.

China will evolve into a world class economic powerhouse due to it's rapid deregulation policy - and it's willingness to embrace the free market.

Fair enough! I agree that expect that economic policy will mature in time. I just can't bring myself to believe that American corporations/politicians can function in a totally free market without subjugating us working folks to abject slavery - too much greed! Maybe I'm just too cynical...

BearMtnHIB wrote: [work for a pharmaceutical company in Boulder-

I'm now working for a corporation in the energy business.

Interesting. Those two industries spend by far the largest amount on Congressional lobbying of any others.

I'd have to wonder, that if these industries have so many regulations, it just might be at least in part the result of, not in spite of, all that lobbying activity. It's certainly possible to end up choking in your own efforts to choke the competition. But I doubt it's worth asking you to consider if there might be any truth in that.