Why Gas Prices Are Out of Any President’s Control

04 Apr 2012 21:19 #41 by Rick
What is an acceptable profit % for an oil company from a liberal's perspective?

The left is angry because they are now being judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.

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04 Apr 2012 21:29 #42 by Something the Dog Said
If you look at historical precendents, integrated oil companies typically had 5 per cent profit margins. since 2003, they have typically been in the 8 per cent range, a huge increase, and some are hitting the 11 per cent range. I don't have a huge problem with their profit margins as opposed the billions of dollars they are receiving in taxpayer subsidies.

"Remember to always be yourself. Unless you can be batman. Then always be batman." Unknown

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04 Apr 2012 21:37 #43 by Blazer Bob

Something the Dog Said wrote: If you look at historical precendents, integrated oil companies typically had 5 per cent profit margins. since 2003, they have typically been in the 8 per cent range, a huge increase, and some are hitting the 11 per cent range. I don't have a huge problem with their profit margins as opposed the billions of dollars they are receiving in taxpayer subsidies.


Got a link for that?

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04 Apr 2012 23:06 #44 by ScienceChic

PrintSmith wrote:

Science Chic wrote:

PrintSmith wrote: The price of any commodity goes up or down depending upon the ability of the market to supply the demand for that commodity.

It would if it were actually the case that free market determines the price of oil, but it doesn't. Prices are artificially controlled thanks to government subsidies, and stockpiling of the item, and by stock markets freaking out and inflating the prices on unsubstantiated fears. So while you're statement

What will lower the cost of oil is increasing the proven reserves of the commodity compared to the demand for the commodity.

might be true for free market items, it is not the case for this item as the easily reached reserves are proven to be becoming more scarce and the more expensive, dirtier, harder to tap reserves will only cause prices to go up, regardless of amount on the market.

Tell me what effect Iran threatening to close the strait would have on the price of oil if there existed a means to replace that supply instead of having to suffer through the disruption of the supply that would occur if the straits are closed by Iran. I've got an answer for you - none. Being able to replace that supply easily would take the sting out of the threat, which would mean that only those oil producing countries that rely on the strait to get their product to market would be affected, the rest of the world would still get their oil whether the strait was open or closed. Having that ability would also lower the cost of the commodity overall because it would mean the supply was far in excess of the demand and easily able to meet the demand. Oil producing companies would be looking for buyers and using price to attract them away from other producers, resulting in an overall lower price. The threat of cutting back on supply would be insufficient to have the desired affect either. Who cares is Saudi Arabia cuts their production in half if Mexico is willing to replace that supply? No one, that's who. The problem gets to be when Mexico can't replace that supply because they can't increase the volume being transported, because they haven't built the pipeline to serve the wells they didn't drill. They know there is oil down there mind you, they have just decided not to do anything to establish how much there is precisely or to prepare it for sale in the market. Thus, the market is kept guessing at how long the supply can be met, which raises the cost, and we get the additional benefit of guessing whether the supply will be interrupted by world affairs, which drives it up a little more. Brilliant plan to keep the market stable, don't you think? The president agrees that it is. He's even gone a step further and driven up the cost of getting to the oil by coming up with a whole new set of regulations that must be complied with that has to be factored into the equation of whether or not it's even worth taking a risk drilling the well to begin with and going one step beyond that and saying that, unlike every other business around, you shouldn't be able to deduct the cost of your raw materials from your balance sheet before figuring out how much you owe in taxes anymore. Oh yeah, none of that combined won't have any effect on the total price - Cass Sunstein's co-author has told us that it won't, right?

PS, I htink you've got some assumptions in there that don't match up with what economists are saying.

Why Gas Prices Are High, Explained
Is it Obama's fault? Iran's? BP's? And what can we expect down the road?
—By Tim McDonnell and James West
| Tue Apr. 3, 2012

Of particular note is the GAO report which details why increasing US production won't bring down prices, what effect disruptions in the ME would have (including closing the strait specifically), OPEC vs non-OPEC production, and that regulations like CAFE standards can help, and that most economists agree that gas prices need to be increased.

The real problem is that we are gluttonous - we are the world's biggest consumers, yet produce little. If we really want to affect gasoline prices, we need to dramatically curb demand.
From the GAO report: "The United States is the world’s largest oil consumer, accounting for about 25 percent of the world’s demand, although it constitutes only about 5 percent of the world’s population. ...The United States is by far the largest consumer of gasoline in the world. As of 2001, the most recent year for which EIA data were available for international comparisons, the United States accounted for 43 percent of the world’s total gasoline consumption."

We've got a larger population that drives further than most individuals/year in other countries - we have to change our behaviors to reduce consumption, and based on the chart showing how much less we pay than other countries, it's past time to catch up. Yes, it will hurt lower income brackets the most, and I don't know any way around that, but it needs to happen.

As for oil company profits, more power to 'em the more they make, but they shouldn't be getting tax breaks on top of that. They can pay for the cost of doing business same as everyone else.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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04 Apr 2012 23:16 #45 by Blazer Bob

"Science wrote: PS, I htink you've got some assumptions in there that don't match up with what economists are saying.

Why Gas Prices Are High, Explained
Is it Obama's fault? Iran's? BP's? And what can we expect down the road?
—By Tim McDonnell and James West
| Tue Apr. 3, 2012

.


Economists?

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05 Apr 2012 03:06 #46 by PrintSmith
The reason we pay less than other countries has more to do with this union not yet attempting to use fuel taxes as a means of appropriating money from the pockets of the population to raise revenues to be used to support a social welfare state via hidden means as is the case in other countries at this time. While true that the majority of the federal fuel taxes have been enacted as a "deficit reduction" measure, said reductions of course never occurring with the resulting revenue, it has not yet reached the point where our legislatues are actually attempting to finance their social welfare efforts with a hidden tax levied on the recipients of that social welfare as is done elsewhere, though that is the current "progressive" plan for here and why the "progressives" are looking to accomplish price parity with other countries by raising taxes on fuel to the point where the taxes levied on it are nearly equal with the cost of bringing the product to market.

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05 Apr 2012 10:27 #47 by ScienceChic

PrintSmith wrote: The reason we pay less than other countries has more to do with this union not yet attempting to use fuel taxes as a means of appropriating money from the pockets of the population to raise revenues to be used to support a social welfare state via hidden means as is the case in other countries at this time. While true that the majority of the federal fuel taxes have been enacted as a "deficit reduction" measure, said reductions of course never occurring with the resulting revenue, it has not yet reached the point where our legislatues are actually attempting to finance their social welfare efforts with a hidden tax levied on the recipients of that social welfare as is done elsewhere, though that is the current "progressive" plan for here and why the "progressives" are looking to accomplish price parity with other countries by raising taxes on fuel to the point where the taxes levied on it are nearly equal with the cost of bringing the product to market.

That seems a pretty big assumption on your part that the reason behind levying taxes on fuel is to create a social welfare state. Maybe they are trying to reduce their dependence on a foreign import that reduces their national security while also damaging the environment? While I don't disagree that the path of leadership organizations over time is to increase their own power, wealth, influence, and control, I also don't think it's right that we consume more per person that any other country yet bitch about how much we pay when we pay far less than everyone else for the same product. We are spoiled little children who don't control ourselves because we have no financial incentive to do so, are brainwashed by propaganda by those who have financial stakes in continuing our dependence on their product, are wasting precious natural resources, and concurrently radically altering our planet. Do you think it's okay that we Americans act so gluttonously, selfishly, childishly, and conceitedly? I sure don't, and yes, I started with me.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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05 Apr 2012 10:38 #48 by FredHayek
We do pay less than Europe for our petrol, but so many in the world are buying subsidized petrol.
And America already has trouble competing in manufacturing with Asia, you want to make it even harder by doubling the price for energy for our manufacturers, freight companies, and our consumers?

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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05 Apr 2012 12:08 #49 by PrintSmith
Let's look at what those European countries are spending their revenue on SC. Is it national defense? No, it isn't - that's another sticking point with the "progressives", how much more of our annual budget we spend on our national defense than any other country does despite this being the major role of the federal government defined for it by the Constitution. When Eisenhower gave his farewell address the union was spending over 50% of its budget on defense - that figure is now below 20%. When Eisenhower coined the term military industrial complex our welfare spending was 25% of the annual budget, it is now roughly 65% of the budget.

The gasoline taxes levied in Europe, by and large, go towards their public welfare spending. Just like our federal government here, that welfare spending composes the lion's share of their annual expenses. The cost of the raw material is the same for them as it is for us because oil is a global commodity and the cost of refining is roughly on par as well. So what, then, represents the difference between what we pay for a gallon of "petrol" versus what they are spending per gallon? The taxes levied by the government on the fuel, right? The cost for a liter of fuel in Great Britain right now is roughly $1.50 USD. Of that, somewhere around 70%, or over a dollar of it, is accounted for in taxes - which would mean that the UK is levying a $4/gallon tax on every gallon of fuel sold compared to our taxes of roughly 15% or about $0.60 per gallon state and federal combined. We are already taxing diesel fuel at a rate that is about 33% higher than we tax gasoline. Guess what fuel is used to bring all of your food and goods to market? That's right, diesel. Why? Easier to hide the tax from the public than taxing their own purchases directly, that's why.

That extra 6 cents per gallon in tax finds its way into every article purchased by every person in this union. It's a way of taxing everyone without them being aware that they are being taxed - which is the best way to tax from the government's perspective. Much harder to complain about the taxes you are paying when someone else is collecting them for the government. On your own purchases you are likely to notice their addition, but in the cost of what you are buying you are likely to overlook them. There is a reason that taxes must be figured into the price at the pump and that reason is that you don't think of how much in taxes you are paying when it is done this way. Bad enough to pump 12 gallons of fuel into your vehicle and see a price of $48.00. You don't want to hear what would happen if the cost came up as $40 for the fuel and then a separate line of $8 for tax was added on, let alone what would happen if the cost came up $40 and then an additional line with another $40 in taxes for a grand total of $80. The folks in DC may be incompetent, but they aren't stupid.

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05 Apr 2012 16:43 #50 by LOL

CritiKalbILL wrote: What is an acceptable profit % for an oil company from a liberal's perspective?


What is an acceptable profit% of GDP for the Federal Government? LOL

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