Settled Science

02 Mar 2014 22:13 #1 by Rick
Settled Science was created by Rick
Is it ever, really? After talking about this in another thread, I found this article from one of the smarter talking heads out there, IMO of course.

The Myth of 'Settled Science'


By Charles Krauthammer, Published: February 20 E-mail the writer

I repeat: I’m not a global warming believer. I’m not a global warming denier. I’ve long believed that it cannot be good for humanity to be spewing tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. I also believe that those scientists who pretend to know exactly what this will cause in 20, 30 or 50 years are white-coated propagandists.

“The debate is settled,” asserted propagandist in chief Barack Obama in his latest State of the Union address. “Climate change is a fact.” Really? There is nothing more anti-scientific than the very idea that science is settled, static, impervious to challenge. Take a non-climate example. It was long assumed that mammograms help reduce breast cancer deaths. This fact was so settled that Obamacare requires every insurance plan to offer mammograms (for free, no less) or be subject to termination....

This is a great article and I think it's the very type of thinking most liberals would say they agree with (except for the global warming part).
I'm not looking to debate global warming here, that's more worn out than most subjects. I'd just like to know what science you believe is settled... what is 100% fact? (and don't tell me fire is hot or the earth orbits the sun and is round) :)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html

The left is angry because they are now being judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.

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02 Mar 2014 23:03 - 02 Mar 2014 23:26 #2 by archer
Replied by archer on topic Settled Science
Rick, neither you nor I would be here if we waited for the science of a cure for cancer to be "settled". Science is always a search for the truth, and as soon as we get to one truth, there is another to be discovered. What I consider to be settled science are those theories that have so far not been unproven and which yield positive results in actual practice. Chemo is not a "cure" for cancer, but it is for now settled science for how to treat it. It is the best we have with the knowledge we have gained and it saves lives.

[the rest of this post was deleted because it was off topic]

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02 Mar 2014 23:14 #3 by archer
Replied by archer on topic Settled Science
Sorry Rick, I reread the OP and realized I missed that you didn't want a rehash of global warming but only a discussion of settled science, my bad. I'll leave up the beginning of the post because it does explain what I see as settled science, as best I could explain it. I hope SC will chime in here as she is far more qualified than I am to tackle that subject...... 2 years of pre med do not a scientist make, but I do tend to see science in medical terms.

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03 Mar 2014 06:48 #4 by FredHayek
Replied by FredHayek on topic Settled Science
Irony? The global warming believers, or cultists who claim this is all settled science call the skeptics flat earthers. Weren't flat earthers the ones who accepted that it was settled science the world was not a globe?
It was the skeptics of established science who proved to be right.

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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03 Mar 2014 07:29 #5 by homeagain
Replied by homeagain on topic Settled Science
From my POV.....mankind is in it's adolescents period and TRULY understanding our orb,our
bodies, our part in the cosmos has MILES AND MILES to go before we can say some science is
settled.....there is a vast amount of knowledge STILL out there, waiting for our maturity or our
MORE EVOLVED mindset....JMO

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03 Mar 2014 07:31 #6 by Rick
Replied by Rick on topic Settled Science

archer wrote: Sorry Rick, I reread the OP and realized I missed that you didn't want a rehash of global warming but only a discussion of settled science, my bad. I'll leave up the beginning of the post because it does explain what I see as settled science, as best I could explain it. I hope SC will chime in here as she is far more qualified than I am to tackle that subject...... 2 years of pre med do not a scientist make, but I do tend to see science in medical terms.

Thanks archer, I appreciate your sticking with my question. I can see how your opinion about chemo is somewhat settled because it does work in many cases. But it also does lots of damage and almost killed me twice, so IMO, it's far from perfected. I just don't like the term, especially when it's only used to end debate or to push an agenda. I wish I had gotten more into science and chemistry when I was younger because it's really interesting to me. But even with my very limited knowledge, I have a strong belief that we mere humans tend to cling to what our minds think are truths and absolutes much like religion. Nobody wants their beliefs to be proven wrong, but that's just one of our many human flaws that really is settled.

The left is angry because they are now being judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.

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03 Mar 2014 09:10 #7 by Venturer
Replied by Venturer on topic Settled Science
Don't think you missed anything Rick. Physics and other related sciences have changed so much since I went to school that I don't recognize them.

So many new advances and changes that will continue, hardly static.

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03 Mar 2014 16:18 #8 by pineinthegrass
Replied by pineinthegrass on topic Settled Science
I was wondering if the term "settled science" has been used for other scientific research prior to climate change research. I can't find that it has, but maybe I've missed it. I'm thinking it's more of a political term.

Could we say the past existence of dinosaurs is settled science, or is there a more accurate term for it? I think most all agree they existed, though it's possible it's just all one big hoax created by something unknown. Plus we can agree that there is still much more to discover about dinosaurs, so it doesn't seem settled to me.

Then there is the question of did humans coexist with dinosaurs. Scientific evidence is pretty strong there too that they did not coexist. But some still question it, and create their own "science".

Newton had his law of gravitation. It's worked well and is still used today so you might say it's "settled science". But later it was found to be wrong in special cases such as near light speeds, very strong gravity, or gravity's effect on light. It took Einstein's special relativity and general relativity to tweek it. And those theories need to be further tweeked as well.

You have laws and theories. I think laws are more to explain what things will do, while a theory tries to explain why it happens. I'm not sure how "settled science" would fit in here. I guess it's pretty settled that if you touch a hot stove it will hurt. I think that would be more of a law since you'd still need a theory to explain what makes it hurt. So far as climate change goes, that seems more of a theory to me (explaining how CO2 can trap heat). The closest I think we have to a law there would be the computer models which attempt to predict future trends, but those in no way compare to Newton's law of gravity and it's precision.

Anyway, as has been happening with gravitation, many laws and theories in science are constantly being questioned and sometimes tweeked as part of ongoing scientific research. To me, settled science would imply there is nothing more about it to be discovered and nothing will change, so it's very hard to think of anything where that would apply.

I think "settled science" is mainly used to say that a large majority of scientists agree about something at a given time. If so, I don't think it's a very good term since it implies things will never change.

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03 Mar 2014 17:19 #9 by Rick
Replied by Rick on topic Settled Science
Good points pine.

The left is angry because they are now being judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.

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04 Mar 2014 01:29 #10 by ScienceChic
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Settled Science
<snort> "Settled science." The people who use that term are non-scientists. :)

Science is uncomfortable, it does not deal in absolutes. There are no black and white, right or wrong answers (except in math), only different ways to travel the path of knowledge discovery knowing that for everything you learn you will have to un-learn something else, and you will realize that what you still don't know is vaster still. But it doesn't negate or trivialize what you do know, nor does it mean that you can't extrapolate to the bigger picture with no hope of any certainty.

When the race was on to discover the "transforming" or "inheritable material" in living creatures, most scientists of the day believed it had to be protein based on the sheer quantity in our bodies and its depth of complexity (based on crude preparations ground out and separated out of many cell types). No way in hell it could be deoxyribonucleic acid, it was too simple, too minute in quantity, to carry the vast instructions required to create a whole new life and command its day-to-day existence. https://www.genome.gov/25520250

Once that was proven wrong, they discarded proteins altogether as having any properties that could affect reproduction and day-to-day genetic influence. Guess what? :wink:

What appears to be "settled", i.e. DNA is the source and controls all, it makes proteins that only go and do the work that keeps us alive, moving, and reproducing, is merely a crude understanding, both simultaneously right and wrong depending upon what question is being asked.

Proteins do indeed directly influence gene transcription by binding to DNA and turning genes on or off, or regulating their activity from high to low. (Proteins can even cause disease by replicating and further infecting cells, just like viruses and bacteria, though that would hardly qualify them as to being "heritable" material. But, if you look at the early experiments that proved DNA was, prions could've fit the bill.) The products of those genes go on to affect other pathways so that in essence a cell is one large cascade of interactions, causes and effects. So they aren't the direct "transforming agent" but they exert a ton of influence. And how does all this work to find the right balance if one gene makes a protein that regulates another gene that affects another gene or protein, ad nauseum down the line, where does the control start or stop? How many genes and proteins interact with, and affect, one another?

From one simple pathway:
File Attachment:

Role of MSKs in Regulating NF-κB Activation http://www.landesbioscience.com/curie/chapter/5390/

To some of the known pathways that are involved in cancer cell signalling:
File Attachment:

http://www.cellsignal.com/catalog/disease/cancer.html

File Attachment:

http://hopelessart.deviantart.com/art/C ... g-47027768

Holy crap, right?! Looking at that, it looks like scientists are hopelessly in the weeds, with no hope of figuring out the bigger picture of how each piece affects the other. Does it mean that what they do know of each individual pathway is inconsequential and any theories as to how it's all integrated at the functional level are for naught? Nope. The fact still exists that the pieces that are known fit into the whole and can be observed, measured, and outcomes predicted with varying degrees of certainty. Because even the bigger picture can be observed and predicted, even without a complete understanding of all the players involved and how they affect the pathway to the outcome.

To add to pine's thoughtful post:

Look above at the last definitions under Law and Theory. These definitions clearly differentiate the two words. Some scientists will tell you that the difference between them is that a law describes what nature does under certain conditions, and will predict what will happen as long as those conditions are met. A theory explains how nature works.

Regardless of which definitions one uses to distinguish between a law and a theory, scientists would agree that a theory is NOT a "transitory law, a law in waiting". There is NO hierarchy being implied by scientists who use these words. That is, a law is neither "better than" nor "above" a theory.

http://science.kennesaw.edu/~rmatson/3380theory.html

I also believe that those scientists who pretend to know exactly what this will cause in 20, 30 or 50 years are white-coated propagandists.

This is a classic example of the ignorance that abounds. This person hasn't even bothered to look up the IPCC, or other primary research, and see the graph of the range of what's predicted based on several scenarios of future carbon output because the word "exactly" does not appear in there. Nor do they "pretend to know" - they make predictions based on known observations of variables influencing climate and determine a range of outcomes with varying degrees of certainty, which are spelled out as to what's still unknown that could change the predictions and then watch to see if those predictions come true. There's no "pretending", just calculated, careful guesswork based on known foundations of observed and measured data, then waiting to observe if predictions match outcomes. The only difference being between climate science and other science disciplines is the level of politicized controversy still involved because scientists feel compelled, once enough data is accumulated to point towards a trend that is deleterious, to raise warnings to the public about said trend. As has been done with many other topics, such as open-air nuclear detonation testing, use of DDT, acid rain, ozone depletion, etc etc (all of which were also fought against when the initial concerns were made public and leaders pushed to do something about it).

To say anything is "settled", is to hide in details, to look for comfort in absolutes. To deride science as "settled" when it is clearly not, but that is not the root cause of the problem, is to look for reasons to reject that which may not be 100% certain mechanistically but requires attention and action nonetheless because observations warrant it.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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