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This makes perfect sense to me. It's not the gun that saves lives, it's the person using the gun that saves lives. Or takes them. And if you're going to say that "guns save lives" as an argument for gun rights, then you are implicitly accepting "guns kill people" as an argument for those who wish to restrict gun rights. If you are going to be consistent and not hypocritical anyway.ZHawke wrote: As long as you do not claim guns "save lives", I'm ok with the concept that guns don't kill people.
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HEARTLESS wrote: ZHawke, it should have said murdered, not died, and isn't true but might have made people look it up. Many people think of themselves as skeptics, but are only hypocrites if they only question what the "other side" says, but takes what they either want or expect to be true from their side. In the movie World War Z one scene Brad Pitt's character is asking why they built a wall around the city, and believed there were zombies before seeing them. The man explains "if 10 men agree that something is true, it is the duty of one of them to take the opposite side." That is true skepticism.
The Department of State assesses crime as “critical” in Ciudad Juarez. 530 persons were murdered in Ciudad Juarez in 2013. This is a substantial improvement over the 730 murders reported in 2012 and the 1,900 murders reported in 2011. 429 persons were murdered in Chihuahua City in 2013, a slight improvement over the 437 murders reported in 2012. A significant majority of homicides in Juarez and Chihuahua City are drug cartel related; however, there have been cases in which innocent people are caught in the line of fire, or mistakenly targeted. A significant majority of homicides in Juarez and Chihuahua City can be considered “drug-related”. As a major drug trafficking corridor, the state of Chihuahua has been contested by two major Transnational Criminal Organizations (TCOs) for years. With more availability of drugs in Juarez, drug use has also increased locally.
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HEARTLESS wrote: My error, only the first sentence was directed to you, I failed to space the other as a general statement.
In regards to my point, our esteemed President is an absolute liar and attempting to manipulate public opinion when he states "we are the only modern nation with this problem."
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It comes down to truth vs lies. The far Left/Progressives justify the means to reach the desired end, even when lies are required to get there. We are not the only nation with a violence problem, but when a solution can't be found, redirect the efforts to punish law abiding gun owners, because they hate guns and gun owners.ZHawke wrote:
HEARTLESS wrote: My error, only the first sentence was directed to you, I failed to space the other as a general statement.
In regards to my point, our esteemed President is an absolute liar and attempting to manipulate public opinion when he states "we are the only modern nation with this problem."
But how does that relate specifically to this thread? Even more importantly, comparing death statistics to see which one is the worst just doesn't compute with me - at least not when taken in their very raw context. There are simply way too many other factors that need to be considered.
For example, the State Department report attributes most of the murders in Ciudad Juarez to drugs. I know drugs have also been talked about as causative in the U.S., too. But there are so many other causatives that need to be considered here that do not apply abroad.
Whether one agrees with the President on this or not, the fact is he's calling for some kind of action to help address this insidious problem here in the U.S. That's a whole lot more than I can say for way too many gundamentalists (by this I mean the extreme pro-gun advocates) who appear to want two things:
1. Roll back existing laws restricting guns and gun ownership, and,
2. Maintain the status quo with regard to anything and everything else related to guns and gun ownership.
As to the manipulation of public opinion on the issue of gun violence, is that not also a prerogative of pro-gun advocacy groups, as well?
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HEARTLESS wrote: It comes down to truth vs lies. The far Left/Progressives justify the means to reach the desired end, even when lies are required to get there. We are not the only nation with a violence problem, but when a solution can't be found, redirect the efforts to punish law abiding gun owners, because they hate guns and gun owners.
Now you can redirect to justify more lies.
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Listen to Obama tell us we are the only modern nation with this problem, then read the blog BS put forth by "gun expert"ZHawke wrote:
HEARTLESS wrote: It comes down to truth vs lies. The far Left/Progressives justify the means to reach the desired end, even when lies are required to get there. We are not the only nation with a violence problem, but when a solution can't be found, redirect the efforts to punish law abiding gun owners, because they hate guns and gun owners.
Now you can redirect to justify more lies.
That, quite simply, is a pretty sad perspective when one comes right down to it.
I'm not so sure anyone here has ever said the U.S. is the only one with a gun violence problem. It's when that mantra is used to justify doing nothing that those who would advocate doing something, anything, to try and help address this issue that "persecuted" gun owners push back by using the "lies" accusation to get their way.
Gun owners are not "persecuted". Nor are they in any danger of being "persecuted". You won't be able to convince me that gun owners ARE being "persecuted" because they are NOT being "persecuted".
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