Trump Era Mountain Community Social Media

13 Dec 2018 13:18 #11 by ramage
George M,
Your writings, from my reading, are obsessed with the concept of "tribe" You specify Pena's tribe, "Hispanic", Webb's tribe "Black" , though you should note that Obama is a mulatto (another tribe) not black, or did not know that his mother was Caucasian (oops, I fear another tribe).

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13 Dec 2018 13:24 #12 by GeorgeM
Well, that's was enlightening Ramage. So you define tribes by race? If one of your undergrads posited that notion would you return the 'submission' for a rewrite?

Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot (Mary Anne Evans)

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13 Dec 2018 15:34 #13 by ScienceChic
I've been thinking on this topic since you posted it GeorgeM (thank you for that, I appreciate having something the ponder more in-depth!), and I keep circling back to two thoughts possibly due to much of my bias of thinking about the bigger picture and causes of unrest in order to find solutions.

First, as I've mentioned here before in terms of our moderating, what you allow is what will continue. The converse for that applies as well - if you mostly visit sites and expose yourself to that which is not controlled, pushes only a one-sided agenda, or fits only your worldview to provide comfort and reinforcement, then you are affecting your psyche in profound ways (and you may not even realize it). It's been proven that social media affects our personality, our moods, and our mental health; is it any wonder that by participating online in places that don't have sufficient standards for civility that our society has become more uncivilized?

I moved to Conifer in 2002 and political forums were always contentious even back then. I was attacked by some after my very first post on Pinecam and called a Big Pharma shill for simply refuting misinformation on vaccines with evidence from journals and the CDC. I'd never once in my life worked for a pharmaceutical company and none of the other posters had a single clue who I was or what I did, some of them just made assumptions because they disagreed with my information and attacked. However, you could at least have debates back and forth between most people with disparate beliefs. Then came the rise of social media.

Facebook, in particular, has allowed people to insulate themselves by getting overloaded with information from friends (mostly, not all, like-minded people). With how much the platform has restricted and artificially decided the trickle of information it shows each user (even of what they themselves have told FB they liked), coupled with it not policing the quality or veracity of content and the explosion of groups with nefarious intentions, it's caused a profound shift toward a feedback loop of disinformation (propaganda) and narrow-mindedness if people only get their news from there, and had dubious influence on our mental health.

(For some thoughtful chewing on information quality, I highly recommend Jim Wright's essay Critical Path on Stonekettle Station.)

Members with whom I used to have great debates, where we actually listened to one another, debunked each other's biases and preconceived notions, sometimes actually learned from one another, and all made calls for civility from others, now can barely restrain themselves from sneering and insulting. I see people who used to be positive, friendly, and engaging now in spaces where they snarl, get cheers from fellow tribesmen, refuse to accept anything which disagrees with their entrenched worldview, and no longer participate in even more light-hearted, fun banter.

It's been disheartening to say the least, and I think our polarization has led to this. Some of that is external, from enemies who seek to divide us, who use emotional propaganda to ramp up our fear and hatred of our fellow Americans so we don't see the true threats; but I think it's more than that...

Second, whether we admit it outwardly or not, I believe that individually every one of us recognizes at least on a subconscious, instinctual level that we are building toward seriously awful changes due to the effect of our over-population, misuse of natural resources, and worldwide unsustainable lifestyles. Changes in climate historically have caused entire previous societies (and species) to become extinct or scattered so much as to lose their heritage to the mists of time. With this pending fight or flight survival instinct triggered, I think that's partly why we have seen over the decades the growing divide between the haves and have-nots (i.e. 1%ers). The more wealth, land, and power you acquire, the more likely you are to weather the coming upheaval in our economy and way of life.

In times of great change, local and regional tribes form for mutual protection and benefit, amassing that which will aid in survival, and this process includes weeding out those you feel are "undesirable" who won't improve the fitness of the group. Whether merit-based on actual survival or simply a matter of being different (and different is bad), I think that's what we're seeing a lot of. We are tied to this earth through the very elements that make up our bodies, we see the increase in devastating fires, heat waves, hurricanes, and drought, and our primitive minds know we're in for a not-so-fun ride.

That's at least my going theory. If you have a better one, I'd love to hear it!

Hmm, it might be time to pull this off the shelf... Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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13 Dec 2018 17:00 #14 by ramage
Sorry George, you introduced race into the thread not me. In that you did not define what you meant by tribe, your mentioning of the ethnic origins of various individuals along with your obsession with tribe led to my statement. Perhaps you can provide your definition of tribe as it relates to the conversation and also explain why it was necessary to indicate the ethnic backgrounds of Pena, Webb, etc. You may consider Hispanic a "race" but many Americans of Spanish descent do not feel that they are any less Caucasian than I am.
Why are you so preoccupied with race and tribalism?

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13 Dec 2018 17:06 #15 by GeorgeM
Thank you, ScienceChic. Very thoughtful and valuable contribution to the conversation.

Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot (Mary Anne Evans)

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13 Dec 2018 17:13 #16 by GeorgeM
Nah, Ramage. This isn't Facebook, and I'm not going to engage in the back-and-forth you're attempting to commence. If you've got some worthy input with regard to the subject matter, i.e. Trump Era Mount Community Social Media, or your thoughts about tribalism, rather than throwing bait, I'd love to engage. I did engage you with the 'inbred' non-issue (above), but now I understand your motivation. Sorry, man. Adults only in this room.

Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot (Mary Anne Evans)

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14 Dec 2018 11:51 #17 by GeorgeM
Had the time this morning to study what you had written, ScienceChic, rather than the quick scan of last evening. So too I now understand you are a moderator and appreciate you directing my attention to the rules.

My decision to head over to this site came from a FB friend’s suggestion that I do so. Clearly I was frustrated with other mountain community social media where discussions are stifled by the predominant ‘tribe’s’ non-deductive reasoning, memes, and where ad hominem vitriol is celebrated with impunity. My assumption was this dismal back-and-forth had accelerated in the era of Trump. I believe it was homeagain who noted it had started with the election of Obama. Additionally, I found myself responding in kind to the steadfast tribal illogic, and while it was fun for a while, it became tiresome.

I was expecting there would be some discussion on the topic—Trump Era Mountain Community Social Media—that would question my characterization of what I found on other sites to be tribal, and a robust albeit civil conversation would ensue. To an extent that has happened with not many participants. But, predictably, the logical fallacy ‘straw man’ popped up, to which I firstly replied, then, after understanding the motivation of the commenter, decided further response was futile and the conversation would devolve to what I had experienced elsewhere, notably FB.

In any event, I don’t know if I’ll continue to share my thoughts on this topic, as there doesn’t appear to be much interest.

Again, thank you for your input.

Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot (Mary Anne Evans)

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14 Dec 2018 12:01 #18 by homeagain
City mentality and mountain mentality are two VERY different mindsets. I would not describe them as tribal,but rather INDEPENDENT. Park County is notorious for bad roads and a wild west approach (we left Parkco in 2015).....unclear how that has changed in not quite 4 years.

Independent thinking does NOT expect the gov. structure to take care of your needs.....your
task is to attempt to be self sufficient. ALASKA is that in spades. You are in a third world
outside of Fairbanks. Parkco is very rural, large and under funded (why your dwelling and acreage was "affordable" (compared to Jeffco). In the past, people moved up to just be one with the mountain. Processing their own wood,buying generators and making the trip down the mountain as little as possible (unless of course you worked down there.) STILL, the drive back up was breath taking beautiful (as you crest Richmond Hill) against an impossibly blue sky.

I understand that mindset may have changed.....one of the reason's we left.

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14 Dec 2018 12:46 #19 by FredHayek
I think humans have always been tribal in nature. Whether you are proud of your ethnicity, your family, your community, or your nation, it has always existed. Memes? Yes, they are a simple few words to attempt to explain a much bigger issue, but before memes and social media, you had bumper stickers, flags, and lapel pins.

Interesting point about mountain and downstream people. I do think there is a trend up here to be proud of depending on yourself to do it rather than turn to others, especially government. Probably isn't efficient for me to work on my tractor when a John Deere trained mechanic could do it faster and cheaper.

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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15 Dec 2018 14:07 #20 by GeorgeM
Homeagain, I don’t think self-sufficiency and individualism are exclusive to folks who prefer wide-open spaces to urban closeness. The ‘frontiersman’ mindset follows what I believe to be an innate characteristic of human beings to both tame nature and live amidst it. The reliance on self-sufficiency in a natural setting is of course necessarily required in order to survive. On the other hand, I believe the urbanite who values self-sufficiency and individualism has a harder row to hoe. Yes, s/he isn’t chopping wood, digging wells, and killing game. S/he is necessarily striving to break out of the conditioned sameness that urban communities foster. Indeed, the urban kid who abjures the gang (certainly a tribe) and strives to educate him or herself with the intent of going to college, to follow a dream that is inconsistent with what his or her contemporaries believe is important has, in my opinion, a tougher road to travel than simply heading to the hills to chop wood.

I believe the predominant tribe up here believes that ‘government help’ is a bugaboo that denies a person the opportunity to reach their ‘self-sufficient’ potential. ‘Independent thinking,’ is not the lynchpin for self-sufficiency. Public universities are certainly part of the ‘government structure’, where many receive ‘government help’ to achieve their dreams of self-sufficiency, i.e. to secure a career they love, to build a family, to contribute to society. And, I don’t buy the tribal notion that—in the words I’ve seen used on mountain community social media—public universities are liberal cesspools of indoctrination. I believe a person gets the kind of education they seek, not necessarily what academia seeks to give. At least that was my intent and experience when I matriculated.

Some social programs stifle self-sufficiency. So too, GOP opposition to a livable minimum wage stifles dignity, without which I don’t believe anyone can achieve self-sufficiency.

FredHayek, of course there have always been tribes. It is in the identity of tribes as expressed through social media that interests me. Folks are tribal for any number of reasons. Jim Jones of Jonestown fame was the leader of his tribe. History is replete with intellectual and emotional tribal allegiances, some that embraced nationalism, some that embraced religion, some that embraced communism, some that embraced racism, some that embraced democracy. What interests me the most, however, is when tribal allegiances become more identifiable with cult behavior where the binding cement of a tribe is more attuned to a personality rather than whatever moral or ethical or humanitarian or individualistic ideology that might have been the foundation of that tribe in the first place. That for me is the rub; the reason Mountain Community social media is so fascinating.

Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot (Mary Anne Evans)

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