Enviromental Contradictions

20 Sep 2010 10:18 #1 by FredHayek
Has anyone seen the Nissan Leaf/Polar Bear commercial? In the commercial, a polar bear wanders down from his home to hug and thank a Nissan Leaf/(100% electric car) owner.
Well, based on current electric consumption, the owner is most likley getting his Leaf power from a coal or natural gas fired power plant. How is that any better than an efficient gasoline or diesel engine?

Same with the Prius, wouldn't it make more sense instead of creating all these very toxic batteries and lugging them around all the time, just use the high MPG diesel autos?

It just seems people prefer to jump on a bandwagon than actually research the results of being a do-gooder. Are disposable diapers better for the enviroment than cleaning all those cloth diapers, especially if you are using a diaper service?

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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20 Sep 2010 13:59 #2 by pineinthegrass

SS109 wrote: Has anyone seen the Nissan Leaf/Polar Bear commercial? In the commercial, a polar bear wanders down from his home to eat and thank a Nissan Leaf/(100% electric car) owner.


Fixed that for you. :wink:

But seriously, it appears electric cars will save on greenhouse gasses, even if much of the electricity is produced from coal. Here is a link that concludes even hybrids save about 40%, and I assume full electrics like the Leaf will save even more...

http://www.energydsm.com/2010/05/electric-vehicles-reduce-greenhouse-gas-emissions/

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20 Sep 2010 14:40 #3 by Grady
Replied by Grady on topic Enviromental Contradictions
The article quoted above doesn’t take into account the energy and pollution caused by the mining of the materials used and manufacture of the batteries themselves.

The greatest environmental impact comes from the pollution caused by the elaborate battery system that powers the electric engine. The battery pollution is substantial because the creation of the batteries requires destructive mining to produce the batteries and the caustic substances that power the batteries must later be disposed of. The caustic substances that power the batteries are very poisonous and when released into the environment leech into the waterways and poison groundwater.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~coreyp/hybridenvimp.html

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20 Sep 2010 15:06 #4 by pineinthegrass

Grady wrote: The article quoted above doesn’t take into account the energy and pollution caused by the mining of the materials used and manufacture of the batteries themselves.


Fair point. But we are talking about two types of pollution. For greenhouse gases, both articles agree hybrids reduce emissions a lot (big dicrepancy though...40% in mine, 90% in yours). I'm not sure yet what the savings will be for plug in hybrids or electric cars which do get electricity from power stations (unlike hybrids which generate their own).

The other factor you brought up is the toxins produced by the mining and later disposing of the materials used to make the batteries for hybrids and electric cars. I don't think that has much greenhouse gas impact, and I'm not sure how to quantify just how serious that is. We are using a lot of those batteries now, especially for notebook computers. And probably most get disposed in the normal trash. I'm quite sure the big and very expensive electric car batteries will get disposed of (by the mechanic replacing the battery) at recycling centers designed to take care of them. But there are still issues which can hopefully be resolved. There's much more to learn here.

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20 Sep 2010 15:45 #5 by FredHayek
One other example. My company makes electronic boards used in meters. Europe and Asia are demanding our products be lead free/RoHS standards. Lead free boards don't conduct as well, and therefore we have more failures on medical equipment. So here they are choosing the enviroment over possible human deaths.
And meanwhile the battery industry gets an extension before they have to get all the lead out of their batteries. And the irony, one car battery disposed of improperly is much more lead in the enviroment than thousands of pre-RoHS boards.

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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20 Sep 2010 22:20 #6 by ScienceChic

Grady wrote: The article quoted above doesn’t take into account the energy and pollution caused by the mining of the materials used and manufacture of the batteries themselves.

The greatest environmental impact comes from the pollution caused by the elaborate battery system that powers the electric engine. The battery pollution is substantial because the creation of the batteries requires destructive mining to produce the batteries and the caustic substances that power the batteries must later be disposed of. The caustic substances that power the batteries are very poisonous and when released into the environment leech into the waterways and poison groundwater.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~coreyp/hybridenvimp.html

Grady, I notice that this article doesn't specify which type of batteries. As far as I know, most hybrid batteries are either Lithium ion or Nickle Metal Hydride, and I believe all electric vehicle batteries are lithium ion which do not contain caustic, toxic substances (unlike lead acid or zinc acid of ICE engines) and can be completely, or almost completely, recycled at the end of their life. The nickle is not mined cleanly, but then again neither is coal.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 120945.htm
Batteries for Battery Powered Cars Are More Environmentally Friendly Than Expected
ScienceDaily (Aug. 30, 2010)

Researchers at Empa's "Technology and Society Laboratory" ...calculated the ecological footprints of electric cars fitted with Li-ion batteries, taking into account all possible relevant factors, from those associated with the production of individual parts all the way through to the scrapping of the vehicle and the disposal of the remains, including the operation of the vehicle during its lifetime.

The study shows that the electric car's Li-ion battery drive is in fact only a moderate environmental burden. At most only 15 per cent of the total burden can be ascribed to the battery (including its manufacture, maintenance and disposal).

The outlook is not as rosy when one looks at the operation of an electric vehicle over an expected lifetime of 150'000 kilometers.

The conclusion drawn by the Empa team: a petrol-engined car must consume between three and four liters per 100 kilometers (or about 70 mpg) in order to be as environmentally friendly as the e-car studied, powered with Li-ion batteries and charged with a typical European electricity mix.

The study: http://pubs.acs.org/action/doSearch?sea ... rtme=Never

Hybrids and pure-electric vehicles are two different beasts, as hybrids still have an ICE. There are comparable production costs, but they do reduce the amount of fuel used and the amount of emissions from the tailpipe. This article makes one important point: the most effective way to reduce your carbon footprint is to reduce the number of miles you drive, regardless of the type of car you have. http://greenliving.lovetoknow.com/Hybri ... tal_Impact

Now to the source of the power to charge the battery. Depending upon in which area of the U.S. one lives (who cares about the rest of the world!), this could either be a high fossil fuel:renewable energy source ratio or a low one. California, for example, gets only about 16% of its energy from coal making it a better choice than say Arizona where 67% of its energy comes from coal. However, as renewable energy sources become more prevalent, this will reduce the pollution burden on charging these vehicles.
http://www.electroauto.com/info/pollmyth.shtml (note: not entirely confident of these statistics - haven't been verified by an independent source)

I like this synopsis of a Master's Thesis produced by a Dutch student on costs and environmental impacts of electric cars - peruse if you have time!
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5104 - summary of the Master's Thesis
http://www.peakoil.nl/wp-content/upload ... sfinal.pdf - The thesis (3Mb)

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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21 Sep 2010 07:57 #7 by 2wlady
Replied by 2wlady on topic Enviromental Contradictions
SS109 wrote: "So here they are choosing the enviroment over possible human deaths."

China has chosen just about anything over their population's health.

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21 Sep 2010 08:25 #8 by FredHayek
China will have some big decisions in their future. Unlike worrying about possible future global warming, they have to worry about increasing deaths due to air pollution. When it starts killing the kids of their leaders, they just might do something about it.

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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