They've tested and sold the cars in northern states (Minn, etc) and are now being sold in Canada (deliveries start in 4Q). I think they are opening a dealership in Toronto too. I can't imagine they'd have much of a market if the cars' batteries had issues there...
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/03/03/te ... veries-st/
cold weather testing
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f77/ ... ter-12066/
tesla's solution to cold-weather charging
http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology/battery
In general, Lithium-ion cells cannot be charged below 0 degrees Celsius, which would theoretically prevent charging in cold environments. To overcome this cold weather charging obstacle, the Roadster is designed with a heater to warm the cells (when plugged in) to an appropriate charging temperature. If there were no battery pack heater, drivers living in cold environments would have difficulty charging and experience stunted driving performance.
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
SC, they talk about charging in cold. Did you see any data on energy storage/loss due to parked outside in the cold? Lead Acid batteries lose alot of energy with cold temp as everyone is aware. I am not sure about Lithium, I am an EE not a Chemist.
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Joe wrote: SC, they talk about charging in cold. Did you see any data on energy storage/loss due to parked outside in the cold? Lead Acid batteries lose alot of energy with cold temp as everyone is aware. I am not sure about Lithium, I am an EE not a Chemist.
Cold Weather
Q: Won't cold weather reduce the driving range to, oh, I dunno. . . let's say about five miles?
No. Lithium-ion cells perform better than most other chemistries in cold weather. If it is really freezing, the car may be a bit sluggish at first, but the cells should soon warm up to operating temperature. Depending on conditions, the range might suffer somewhat, or it might possibly gain as a result of the cooling system not having to work as hard.
The cabin heater also draws a fair bit of power (1500 watts), which would impact your driving range. A quick calculation suggests running it continuously for an hour might take about seven miles off your range. However, the Roadster comes with heated seats which consume much less power (60 watts) - they should have negligible effect on range if you rely on them instead of the cabin heater.
One nice thing about the cabin heater is that it will put out heat immediately, there's no need to wait for the engine to warm up, as you would in a conventional car.
Q: My laptop battery died after two years! How can you expect anyone to buy a car with a battery that needs replacing every couple of years?
It will last much longer than two years. The battery in your laptop has no cooling system, is located next to hot electrical components, is often kept at 100% state of charge for long periods of time and then completely discharged until empty. These are the worst possible conditions for Li-Ion battery life. The Tesla Roadster has a liquid cooling system, and it has a monitoring system that controls the rate of charge and the charge level to extend the battery life. It should be good for about seven years, possibly even ten.
The battery doesn't lay down and die after seven years, it gradually loses capacity from the moment it's manufactured. Seven years is merely an estimate of when most people will want to replace it. If you can tolerate the reduced range, then you can further stretch out the replacement time.
Norway and Denmark are among our top markets in the EU, where we give test-drives all winter long."
That may be, but we weren't able to find any photos of a Tesla roadster plowing through snowdrifts.
Test drives don't take much time, and are new cars that haven't "used up" their battery life. The oldest Tesla (production, not test car) is just over 2 years old, so no one's got the long-term data - even Tesla. You can run a car hard to simulate wear and tear over time, but you can't really do that with a battery so much.
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/06/29/t ... substance/
Reuters says the company will live and die based on one thing: its batteries. The current chemistry of Tesla’s batteries is expensive to produce and doesn’t work as well in cold weather.
Mythbusters Part 3: Recycling our Non-Toxic Battery Packs
The cells in our battery are composed mainly of lithium metal oxides. In other words, they do not contain any of the following:
Above and beyond RoHS, our lithium ion cells contain no heavy metals, nor any toxic materials. In fact, our cells and ESS, by law, could be disposed of by putting them in a landfill. There are some exciting potential uses for the ESS in its afterlife.
...the recycling process is mainly a mechanical and chemical one. It does not involve any smelters; so emissions are kept to a minimum.
The result from this process is that we are able to recycle about 60% of the ESS materials and reuse a further 10% (by weight). We currently plan to landfill only the benign fluff...
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Good stuff SC. I have been working in the R&D area of hybrids since 2002, and have been following Tesla and others. The quote is right,
"Reuters says the company will live and die based on one thing: its batteries. The current chemistry of Tesla’s batteries is expensive to produce and doesn’t work as well in cold weather."
Lithium is a big step improvement over the past. But they are untested long term in real life, costly, and have some major challenges in safety and cost of manufacture. Temperature seems to be an issue both cold and hot.
This link had alot of technical info on batteries. It seems they may need to maintain the temperature of the battery pack, which uses energy, say if the car is parked at work in the cold all day.
http://www.mpoweruk.com/performance.htm
"The graph shows how the performance of Lithium Ion batteries deteriorates as the operating temperature decreases."
If you want to be, press one. If you want not to be, press 2
Republicans are red, democrats are blue, neither of them, gives a flip about you.
Joe wrote: Good stuff SC. I have been working in the R&D area of hybrids since 2002, and have been following Tesla and others. The quote is right,
"Reuters says the company will live and die based on one thing: its batteries.
I'd be very interested in hearing more of your first-hand experience working on these types of cars! What do you see as flaws, strengths, etc?
I will continue following info on the batteries as they do seem to be the weak link/biggest uncertainty at this point. If they last 7-10 years, that'll be good enough for me but what will the driving range be by the end of that span...
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
SC, Altair NanoTechnologies and A123 Systems are the two big battery companies to watch.
I think the companies claim 80% capacity up to ten years, but I bet that is marketing optimism. Alot depends on usage and temperature.
The most interesting technology to me after batteries, is motors. They are either brushless DC or AC induction. The advanced motors are wheel hub motors with no gear box, direct drive with no transmission. Its very hard to do over a wide speed range.
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Joe wrote: I like the idea of pure electric the best. Lithium batteries are getting pretty good except for the cost. The Volt still has a gas engine which adds to cost/maintenance. I think a 50-100 mile all electric range would be fine for a city commuter.
Agree all electric would be best. But at a 50-100 mile range and a charging time of 30 min at a fast charge station (if you can find one) I just don't see the Leaf being an all purpose car. It could be a great second car for the commute, though.
The Volt seems to be more all-purpose. If your commute is less than 40 miles, you don't use the gas engine. Or get an electric car with a 250+ mile range for less then $40K. I haven't heard of anything like that on the horizon, though.
pine - While Tesla's Model S starts at $49K, it will have 2 additional battery pack options that will get you from the base of 160 miles per full charge to 230mpc and 300mpc (of course, those will cost more and add to the charge time). If CO gives as big a tax break for the Model S as it did for the Roadster, then the price will be well below $40K! Deliveries are estimated to begin in early 2012 if Tesla stays on track...
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
I think this car was just delivered in a box by that UPS truck. Some assembly required. Batteries extra. May require assistance to enter vehicle. Do not drive while taking a deep breath...
