Sam Lucas Told To Evacuate Before Home Caught Fire

mtntrekker wrote:
Have to agree renegade that InterCanyon has great firefighters as many work as paid firefighters in other counties. They are well trained.

My concern goes to not contacting all homeowners. It may be common knowledge to you that a chain means they won't bother to contact you but until you tell all homeowners that, there is a responsibility that the fire dept has taken on by holding themselves out as being a fire dept. Common knowledge does not mean squat. If you aren't going to give services to all, then the homeowners should be given a credit on their taxes and given written notice signed off by them. Otherwise the fire dept., not the firefighter, opens themselves up for suit. Looks like this issue just might now be addressed when the fire dept gets sued.

I guess common sense to me isn't common to all. I don't expect the fire dept to visit my home every year to make sure I'm not doing anything to endanger myself. If I don't maintain access to my property, I shouldn't expect someone to go over and beyond the call of duty to trek up on foot to my house to try and help me. Both of these residents saw the fire. They didn't leave. They should have left long before the fire dept arrived.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but access is pretty straightforward to me. The fire dept is a call away, and they are happy to come review your home for any issues. Instead of the govt going out, shouldn't we as residence of this community take it upon ourselves to contact them if we have questions?

mtntrekker wrote:

Martin Ent Inc wrote: Even if there is a lawsuit, they have a cap of 200k.

They have the good ole boy system in all depts. so someone may take a fall for the betterment of the rest.

Alas so unfortunate that there has to be a lawsuit and loss of life before the fire dept address the issues. While some of it is volunteer we have paid leadership whose heads should fall and like you said probably won't. But please as litigious as this society is and how the fire dept has failed many, it is time for them to be responsible if they are going to hold them out as your fire dept.

How did they fail?

The fire dept. have a fiduciary responsibility to its citizens. If they choose not to inform people, they have to let people know so that they can tell their individual homeowner insurance companies as it effects their rates.

Furthermore the rating that insurance companies give fire dept. is based on a number of factors. If they are choosing not to protect all homeowners then it is their responsibility to let the insurance companies know that.

Looks like homeowners have a fraud and deceit claim against the fire dept. Time for the fire dept. to look at and address these issues. A lawsuit by Appels who failed to get notice at least twice might address these issues.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/04/10/l ... alert-her/

Lower North Fork Fire Victim’s Family Questions Effort To Alert Her

Renegade how do we contact the f.d. about issues if we don't know about them and know to ask.

It is not common knowledge that a chain means that the f.d. won't give notice. In fact, in Platte Canyon Fire, a 2nd in command told another resident that if there is a gate that they are going to just crash it in an emergency.

As for the Appels, having common sense or not, people expect that since there is a emergency alert notification in place that they will get a call. They may smell smoke or see smoke but they don't necessarily know the location and how it is travelling, etc. That is fire dept. responsibility. And unless it has been made clear that they won't give notice in person, they here again have a fiduciary responsibility, because the homeowner may not have all the particulars to make an informed decision.

Plenty of screw ups to go around.

RenegadeCJ wrote: I'm sorry, but when fire is bearing down (as is obvious in the video poster earlier), you don't stay around and go back in to get more stuff. You leave....immediately. You don't wait for the govt or fire dept to tell you to do so.

I tend to believe Inter Canyon because I know many of the guys in that dept. They are awesome, and go way beyond the call of duty. I really don't expect a fireman to wait around. They gotta get to others.

I also don't expect a fireman to walk a driveway because the owner decides they need a chain across the drive. This is common knowledge up here. The govt doesn't need to come and tell you what to do. If you are curious, ask the dept. When I moved up here, I spoke to the fire dept about their recommendations...One was-Don't block your driveway, and in fact, make sure you maintain it so their trucks can get down it, because that risks the fire personel's life. If the fire is bearing down, seconds matter....in the time they could walk the driveway, they could warn another few homes.

I agree communication needs to be better. Stop blaming and start learning. This was a tragedy, but it is done. Lets learn how to avoid this in the future if at all possible, but really. We are lucky to have such wonderful people who put their lives at risk so we can live in this beautiful place. Take some personal responsibility that you should have when you move into a tinder box. If you see fire, or see smoke, LEAVE. Don't wait for someone to tell you to do so! :bash

The Appel family is angry that the fire dept. guy didn't walk the 3-minute walk to the house. How would he know it's "only" 3 minutes? The house was obscured by a hill and trees. 3 minutes? 5 minutes? Plus the walk back, as opposed to going to accessible homes and warning them?

The Jeffco deputy that got trapped when his car wouldn't start and had to be led out by radio had just been arguing with a homeowner who refused to leave. How much time was wasted with that?? He could have lost his life because someone wanted to argue in a situation when the smoke was so dense the deputy couldn't see 20 feet. What the hell good does a emergency alert notification do in a situation like that?

I grieve the loss of life. My heart breaks for the families, especially the Appel family who had to wait so long to learn of their loved one. But for heaven's sake, don't bash the first responders in your desperation to find answers.

As Renegade and others have said, if you see smoke, get the hell out of Dodge!

mtntrekker wrote: Renegade how do we contact the f.d. about issues if we don't know about them and know to ask.

It is not common knowledge that a chain means that the f.d. won't give notice. In fact, in Platte Canyon Fire, a 2nd in command told another resident that if there is a gate that they are going to just crash it in an emergency.

As for the Appels, having common sense or not, people expect that since there is a emergency alert notification in place that they will get a call. They may smell smoke or see smoke but they don't necessarily know the location and how it is travelling, etc. That is fire dept. responsibility. And unless it has been made clear that they won't give notice in person, they here again have a fiduciary responsibility, because the homeowner may not have all the particulars to make an informed decision.

Plenty of screw ups to go around.

I called my fired dept. I asked them to come by and look at my property and give me advise. The were more than happy to do so. I suspect all of our depts would do the same. Yes, the dept can crash gates in case of a 911 call, but there is a big difference between crashing a gate in a fire truck, and crashing a gate in a fightfighter's personal vehicle. I haven't seen the chain, posts, etc, but I have experienced thieves attempting to crash chains in pickups at our jobsites....many times the chain disables the vehicle before yielding. I don't expect our firefighters to do this. I don't know what the law says though.

I don't know about these particular properties, but I suspect they are considered "undefended" by their insurance company. I can't remember the mileage exactly, but I think in order for your insurance company to consider you being defended by a fire dept, they have to have a full time station within 5 miles of your location.

I guess I am too strong of a believer in being responsible. I don't think it is the govts job to babysit us. When we move up here, we should take the initiative to talk to others, and talk to those who we expect to defend our homes. If we choose not to do this, that is our burden, not theirs. We don't pay for a full time force, so we get what we pay for. An outstanding group of individuals who give of their time and possibly their lives, and in return, they expect us to do our part as well, and not be stupid.

I put more burden on the community around the Appels. If she couldn't get out, someone around her should have known this, and had a key for the chain, and gone and gotten her. I took that as the lesson. I'm going to find out who in my neighborhood can't get out on their own, so we can check on them in the future.

I still don't know what the dept did wrong. I understand anger, and wanting to blame someone when a tragedy happens. Problem is, sometimes accidents happen. It doesn't alway have to be someone else's fault. Sometimes you need to look at yourself, or those who were killed, and say "They screwed up. Let's all learn a lesson from this".

mtntrekker wrote: Renegade how do we contact the f.d. about issues if we don't know about them and know to ask.
Call your local department and ask them to to a property review. We did. Platte Canyon checked the slope of our property, width of driveway, fuel load, etc. We were told that our house was defensible and would be noted. Now that you have more questions, ask them.

It is not common knowledge that a chain means that the f.d. won't give notice. In fact, in Platte Canyon Fire, a 2nd in command told another resident that if there is a gate that they are going to just crash it in an emergency.
It may not be common knowledge, but it should be common sense that a gate, chain, or other impediment will deny access to your property. That's why it's there, right?

As for the Appels, having common sense or not, people expect that since there is a emergency alert notification in place that they will get a call. They may smell smoke or see smoke but they don't necessarily know the location and how it is travelling, etc. That is fire dept. responsibility. And unless it has been made clear that they won't give notice in person, they here again have a fiduciary responsibility, because the homeowner may not have all the particulars to make an informed decision.
I've asked before and will ask you specifically again, what did people do before the days of the emergency alert notification? Sit there til they burned? Or use their common sense and get out of the possible danger zone?

Plenty of screw ups to go around.
I disagree with your broad brush.

mtntrekker wrote: The fire dept. have a fiduciary responsibility to its citizens. If they choose not to inform people, they have to let people know so that they can tell their individual homeowner insurance companies as it effects their rates.

Furthermore the rating that insurance companies give fire dept. is based on a number of factors. If they are choosing not to protect all homeowners then it is their responsibility to let the insurance companies know that.

Looks like homeowners have a fraud and deceit claim against the fire dept. Time for the fire dept. to look at and address these issues. A lawsuit by Appels who failed to get notice at least twice might address these issues.

Do you have a link to this?

The fire dept. have a fiduciary responsibility to its citizens. If they choose not to inform people, they have to let people know so that they can tell their individual homeowner insurance companies as it effects their rates.

If the property is in Elk Creek's jurisdiction but an Inter-Canyon firefighter decides to alert whomever he can to evacuate, when there's not an official evacuation, how do you jump to the fire department is choosing not to inform people? By blaming the firefighter who risked his life to inform as many people as he safely could you are setting the stage for next fire where a firefighter might not take that initiative because somebody he didn't notify might sue him.