Sam Lucas Told To Evacuate Before Home Caught Fire

The fire departments in the area all have the ability to talk directly with each other, and do so on a regular basis. Why CSFS did not make use of this ability, or ask Jeffco dispatch to patch their frequency in to one that is accessible to the fire departments, is unknown at this time.

The Lower North Fork Burn Plan, created by CSFS, contains the frequencies used by all local fire departments, as well as the VHF frequency of CSFS. It appears that this plan was not provided to at least one of the neighboring fire departments, unknown if any of the others had received it.

Regarding the maps, I cannot answer that. I can say that the supplemental burn plan documentation recently released by CSFS contains clear information regarding the access point for the prescribed burn. Again, I do not know if any of the local fire departments received this information from CSFS.

There is a ton of information out there about how bravely our firefighters were out there.
So many factors played into the loss of Mrs Appel. There wasn't just one thing.
Flat Tire. Weakened from Chemo. and her driveway was another hurdle.
I don't blame that fire fighter one bit for moving to the next residence.

[gmap:3slv6jqt] maps.google.com/?ll=39.45705,-105.18324&...01,0.005144&t=h&z=18 [/gmap:3slv6jqt]

The driveway is pretty long and the firefighter had no way of knowing where that home was at the end of that driveway. If the fire was close....it placed him in grave danger.

My question is....what time did those homes burn.

jf1acai wrote: The fire departments in the area all have the ability to talk directly with each other, and do so on a regular basis. Why CSFS did not make use of this ability, or ask Jeffco dispatch to patch their frequency in to one that is accessible to the fire departments, is unknown at this time.

The Lower North Fork Burn Plan, created by CSFS, contains the frequencies used by all local fire departments, as well as the VHF frequency of CSFS. It appears that this plan was not provided to at least one of the neighboring fire departments, unknown if any of the others had received it.

Regarding the maps, I cannot answer that. I can say that the supplemental burn plan documentation recently released by CSFS contains clear information regarding the access point for the prescribed burn. Again, I do not know if any of the local fire departments received this information from CSFS.

It is my understanding,NOT a tekkie-kind of person,that OUTDATED (analog)frequencies are in place in SOME depts and SOME depts
have a pre-package digital plan that is NOT compatible with others.......kind of a "patch work" pattern to the communications within
various agencies......The NEW lead individual indicated that in his news conference.

It is my understanding that maps for the ACTUAL burn area (Pleasant Park and Huestner) were OUTDATED and did NOT have adequate platting to discern where sub-divisions,new neighborhoods and houses and access roads were located.....THOSE are the
maps I am referring to......the WHOLE of this is just so fubarred.JMO

Renegaded is right.
Living up here means taking a good deal of personal responsibility for yourself.
One of the first things that a Fire department looks at when they come to your home is accessibility.
Can they enter and leave your property safely to defend it?
How quickly can a fire move across your property?
The Appel family has issued a statement that is critical of the firefighter not going over the chain and walking a considerable distance to notify Mrs Appel.
My opinion of that is that for the firefighter to do so placed himself as well as other individuals that he would not be able to warn in grave danger.
Even if he had driven through the chain and up the driveway.....there was very little room to exit safely given the amount of material along the driveway. if you enlarge the google map above you will see part of the problem.
My prayers to this firefighter and his family as I know he is carrying a heavy burden now.
Mr Lucas repeatedly mentions his fire suppression system.
i know that whatever I do to my property to mitigate.....it only improves my chances of saving my home.....it does not guarantee it will survive.
Also.....please place your address prominently where it can be seen.

It has been shown over and over again that the UHF (Ultra High Frequency) State Digital Trunked Radio System (DTRS) does not work well for fire fighting activities in the mountains. That is why all fire fighting communications on the Lower North Fork Fire was using VHF (Very High Frequency) analog communications.

No matter how hard some want to try, they cannot change the laws of physics and make UHF work well in mountainous terrain.

The conversation we are having,on this venue,is IMPERATIVE.......from what you are saying,(not a tekkie person ) the communication
problem can NOT be solved?........operating on that assumption, then it is EVEN MORE IMPERATIVE that every person,in every household here on the mountain TAKE FULL RESPONSIBLITY FOR THEIR SAFETY. I think THAT is the learning lesson from this travesty.JMO

RenegadeCJ wrote:

mtntrekker wrote: So lets say that InterCanyon FF did meet up with Sam Lucas. What is there to say he wasn't doing exactly that? No smoking gun here. They are not off the hook.

In fact I get pretty pissed that it looks more like the dept. screws up and is now trying to show what a good job they did - not.

Now I freaking understand why people do whatever they please and have so little trust in the Sheriff's and Fire dept.

And you know it would help to know that it is standard policy to not walk the driveway to the house to let people know, like with Appel who received no notice whatsoever and bad info from dispatch. So that tells me not to trust one word out of the fire department or dispatch or the sheriff's dept. Ok now I think I am on board with a lot of other people.

I'm sorry, but when fire is bearing down (as is obvious in the video poster earlier), you don't stay around and go back in to get more stuff. You leave....immediately. You don't wait for the govt or fire dept to tell you to do so.

I tend to believe Inter Canyon because I know many of the guys in that dept. They are awesome, and go way beyond the call of duty. I really don't expect a fireman to wait around. They gotta get to others.

I also don't expect a fireman to walk a driveway because the owner decides they need a chain across the drive. This is common knowledge up here. The govt doesn't need to come and tell you what to do. If you are curious, ask the dept. When I moved up here, I spoke to the fire dept about their recommendations...One was-Don't block your driveway, and in fact, make sure you maintain it so their trucks can get down it, because that risks the fire personel's life. If the fire is bearing down, seconds matter....in the time they could walk the driveway, they could warn another few homes.

I agree communication needs to be better. Stop blaming and start learning. This was a tragedy, but it is done. Lets learn how to avoid this in the future if at all possible, but really. We are lucky to have such wonderful people who put their lives at risk so we can live in this beautiful place. Take some personal responsibility that you should have when you move into a tinder box. If you see fire, or see smoke, LEAVE. Don't wait for someone to tell you to do so! :bash

Have to agree renegade that InterCanyon has great firefighters as many work as paid firefighters in other counties. They are well trained.

My concern goes to not contacting all homeowners. It may be common knowledge to you that a chain means they won't bother to contact you but until you tell all homeowners that, there is a responsibility that the fire dept has taken on by holding themselves out as being a fire dept. Common knowledge does not mean squat. If you aren't going to give services to all, then the homeowners should be given a credit on their taxes and given written notice signed off by them. Otherwise the fire dept., not the firefighter, opens themselves up for suit. Looks like this issue just might now be addressed when the fire dept gets sued.

I did not mean to imply that the communication problem cannot be solved. What I meant is that having everyone convert to the State DTRS system is not the solution.

Local fire departments can, and do, communicate on the existing VHF frequencies. Why CSFS did not make use of this capability is unknown.

In addition, Jeffco dispatch can, and frequently does, patch together frequencies, including State DTRS talk channels, with frequencies accessible to local fire departments to allow them to communicate as if they were on the same frequency. All that is necessary is that the IC request the patch desired.

I suspect that in this case it was more of a user knowledge issue than a technical issue.

Note that when the Jeffco Type 3 IMT, or Federal Type 1 or Type 2 IMTs take command of an incident, they provide VHF radios, repeaters, communications personnel etc. to establish pre-programmed communications for all personnel on the incident. These radios include the capability to communicate as necessary on the local department frequencies. This, plus the additional trained overhead personnel included on the IMTs makes it crucial for the IMT to be requested as early in the incident as possible. I do not know why the CSFS IC delayed this request for nearly 2 hours after the IMT was requested by a local fire chief.

Even if there is a lawsuit, they have a cap of 200k.

They have the good ole boy system in all depts. so someone may take a fall for the betterment of the rest.

Martin Ent Inc wrote: Even if there is a lawsuit, they have a cap of 200k.

They have the good ole boy system in all depts. so someone may take a fall for the betterment of the rest.

Alas so unfortunate that there has to be a lawsuit and loss of life before the fire dept address the issues. While some of it is volunteer we have paid leadership whose heads should fall and like you said probably won't. But please as litigious as this society is and how the fire dept has failed many, it is time for them to be responsible if they are going to hold them out as your fire dept.