60 reported dead in Paris

14 Nov 2015 19:25 - 14 Nov 2015 19:28 #11 by Jukerado
Replied by Jukerado on topic 60 reported dead in Paris
My comment on "defense" means no one should be a victim. I believe that our military should do what it takes to eliminate the ISIS threat - but that can't happen because we don't have a POTUS who can comprehend that these people actually enjoy killing. They do it as part of their calling. They think they're on a divine mission, and that's a serious motivation.

Even Hollande understands a war is upon is, but BHO won't acknowledge that. He won't commit to the cause, because he somehow doesn't want to offend the Muslims - as if that would be rude or unpopular or damage his legacy. (Ha.) Obama wants only to be the popular kid, to be a late night talk show rock star, to be hip with the in crowd. He's not a leader and never has been, which is why other national leaders don't respect him. His current policy is to downsize the military and be more concerned with making our forces all-inclusive and politically correct, than it is to be battle-ready as the strongest military on earth. Perhaps Barrack can send James Taylor back to France to sing to them....

Since I don't believe enough military might will be unleashed to stop them, I believe we'll be seeing more terrorist acts here at home, and soon. I think it is incumbent upon each of us to prepare for this.

I appreciate the sentiment of peace and non-hatred, I really and truly do. It is a noble aspiration and should be pursued by all thinking humans. But being a realist, I know that evil has no limits and can't be tamed or talked down or counseled - only conquered. These folks aren't "angry, hurt, and desperate" ... they're pure evil. They are murdering and raping and destroying like locusts, and these acts are directed against their own people, not just us. So vanquishing this evil is not hurting back, it is protecting the weak and the helpless and the oppressed. There certainly isn't time or room to try and negotiate with these maniacs - they've been focused on this course for a long, long, long time. They believe they are called to it.

I encourage everyone to read this in-depth, extensive article on "What ISIS Really Wants". It is a true eye-opener:

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/201...really-wants/384980/

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14 Nov 2015 20:17 #12 by Ashley
Replied by Ashley on topic 60 reported dead in Paris
Not realistic to think that giving something to someone is going to change them. Look at how much money the government throws at other nations now and it really doesn't seem to improve anything. If anything it makes them dependent and expecting more and they will do what they want and not necessarily what you think they should want. We have done all that helping and look where we are.

The bottom line is that there are terror groups who want to destroy and will continue whether it is across the world or in our own backyard and no amount of money and 'don't do that' is going to resolve the issues. You have to take them out. Do you want to do it there or in our backyard, that is the question.
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14 Nov 2015 20:23 #13 by ScienceChic
The US and its Allies may not deliberately target innocent civilians (though there seems to be way too many "unintended casualties" who are just collateral damage), the fact of the matter remains that when you go to war, there will be civilian casualties and it's these especially that incite those to take up arms in the name of revenge who wouldn't have otherwise.

What exactly "should" our military do to eliminate the ISIS threat? We've learned only too painfully that simple repeated bombings aren't effective and do we really want to put our boots back on the ground in the numbers they were just a few years ago and ramp this back up again when we have neither the funds nor the public support? When is the last time we won a war on foreign lands even though we are supposedly the most advanced and strongest military might in the world? I love our soldiers, I don't wish to see them die in vain.

The post from Astronautalis made a very good point that we don't know nearly enough about who committed these acts and why. Investigation is warranted before actions taken. Before war is so light-heartedly declared and rushed toward with enthusiastic cries of vengeance and freedom from terror.

After Paris Attacks, a Call for Justice—Not Vengeance
The years after September 11 are a powerful reminder that an ‘all-out war’ on terror only creates more terrorism.
By Phyllis Bennis
Yesterday 2:20 pm

France is in mourning and in shock. We still don’t know how many people were killed and injured. In fact, there’s a lot we still don’t know—including who was responsible. The ISIS claim of responsibility tells us virtually nothing about who really planned or carried out the attacks; opportunist claims are an old story. But the lack of information hasn’t prevented lots of assumptions about who is “obviously” responsible and what should be done to them. Already the call is rising across France—“this time it’s all-out war.”
<snip>
But we do know what happens when cries of war and vengeance drown out all other voices; we’ve heard them before.

Because now everyone knows the devastating wars that killed so many hundreds of thousands of ordinary people didn’t work to wipe out terrorism. Terrorism survives wars; people don’t. Because you can’t bomb terrorism—you can only bomb people. You can bomb cities. Sometimes you might kill a terrorist—but that doesn’t end terrorism, it only encourages more of it.


"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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14 Nov 2015 20:57 - 14 Nov 2015 21:03 #14 by Jukerado
Replied by Jukerado on topic 60 reported dead in Paris
It's a tough position to be on the 'civilized' side and not hurt/kill civilians. The terrorists, of course, know this; which is why they hide behind women and children and hospitals. The only positive aspect of battling ISIS is that they seem to have affected a type of uniform and are easier to spot. They're always playing the odds of what the other side is willing to do or not to do. I certainly don't want to sound cavalier - but people get killed. It's not pleasant and it's not right but it's not going to stop.

We're not going to coax ISIS out with a Hershey bar, then whack 'em. Nor can we carpet bomb the Middle East, although I have also heard the (illogical) cries to do so. We can't be everywhere and solve every other country's problems, and I'm also against committing our ground forces in Syria and Iraq. As our military has been cut to the quick and the internal temperature isn't helping recruitment (I personally feel that teachers, nurses, and the military should be the highest paid occupations - but I digress) - we must do all we can to strengthen the Kurds and the Israelis - for they are 100% committed to the cause. We can simply redirect a lot of misspent foreign aid.

A lot of people consider the French to be more on the wine-&-cheese side of humanity, no longer an aggressive force. And they have the largest population of Muslims in Europe, and have bent over backward to accommodate Islam - to the point of losing their national identity. The fact that cries of war are being heard from France is startling, to be sure - this is real, it's happening, so what are we prepared to do? Wait and see?

Phyllis Benner is 100% wrong when she wrote "You can bomb cities. Sometimes you might kill a terrorist—but that doesn’t end terrorism, it only encourages more of it." This is the "it's America's fault" mindset. Terrorists don't need provocation or encouragement. Radical islam is on a divine mission. Terrorists hide behind civilians and use children to set off bombs, and they usually target unarmed civilians. Since ISIS has claimed this, and it seems pretty obvious they dig this type of thing, and the murderers were screaming, "allah akbar", and at least one had a Syrian passport ... well, I'm betting they weren't from Finland.

Again - this isn't something new and spur of the moment. ISIS has been working towards this for years, long before 9/11. They are licking their chops, and they're watching everything right now to see how the French react, how the world responds, and how they'll adjust their next attack. Let us not forget that they are slaughtering their own for not being Muslim enough.

I'll defer to you, my dear, as I've said my piece. God bless America and all those who go in harm's way. :flag:

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14 Nov 2015 21:05 #15 by Ashley
Replied by Ashley on topic 60 reported dead in Paris
SC read the article by Phyllis Bennis. No we probably will never stop terror forever but then should we not have intervened in WWII and stopped Hitler? Just roll over and everything will be ok? Have we learned nothing from history?

Jukerado thanks for the link on ISIS.

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14 Nov 2015 21:06 #16 by ScienceChic

Jukerado wrote: <snip>

I encourage everyone to read this in-depth, extensive article on "What ISIS Really Wants". It is a true eye-opener:

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/201...really-wants/384980/

I've been working my way through this article, it's very enlightening. Thank you for posting it Jukerado.

One part that has caught my attention in particular would seem to support the notion that containment is the best course of action, not air strikes or a direct attack:

And yet the risks of escalation are enormous. The biggest proponent of an American invasion is the Islamic State itself. The provocative videos, in which a black-hooded executioner addresses President Obama by name, are clearly made to draw America into the fight. An invasion would be a huge propaganda victory for jihadists worldwide: <snip> they all believe that the United States wants to embark on a modern-day Crusade and kill Muslims. Yet another invasion and occupation would confirm that suspicion, and bolster recruitment. Add the incompetence of our previous efforts as occupiers, and we have reason for reluctance. The rise of ISIS, after all, happened only because our previous occupation created space for Zarqawi and his followers. Who knows the consequences of another botched job?

Given everything we know about the Islamic State, continuing to slowly bleed it, through air strikes and proxy warfare, appears the best of bad military options. Neither the Kurds nor the Shia will ever subdue and control the whole Sunni heartland of Syria and Iraq—they are hated there, and have no appetite for such an adventure anyway. But they can keep the Islamic State from fulfilling its duty to expand. And with every month that it fails to expand, it resembles less the conquering state of the Prophet Muhammad than yet another Middle Eastern government failing to bring prosperity to its people.

The humanitarian cost of the Islamic State’s existence is high. But its threat to the United States is smaller than its all too frequent conflation with al-Qaeda would suggest. Al-Qaeda’s core is rare among jihadist groups for its focus on the “far enemy” (the West); most jihadist groups’ main concerns lie closer to home. That’s especially true of the Islamic State, precisely because of its ideology. It sees enemies everywhere around it, and while its leadership wishes ill on the United States, the application of Sharia in the caliphate and the expansion to contiguous lands are paramount.

Properly contained, the Islamic State is likely to be its own undoing. No country is its ally, and its ideology ensures that this will remain the case. The land it controls, while expansive, is mostly uninhabited and poor.


"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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14 Nov 2015 21:17 #17 by ScienceChic

Jukerado wrote: We're not going to coax ISIS out with a Hershey bar, then whack 'em. Nor can we carpet bomb the Middle East, although I have also heard the (illogical) cries to do so. We can't be everywhere and solve every other country's problems, and I'm also against committing our ground forces in Syria and Iraq. As our military has been cut to the quick and the internal temperature isn't helping recruitment (I personally feel that teachers, nurses, and the military should be the highest paid occupations - but I digress) - we must do all we can to strengthen the Kurds and the Israelis - for they are 100% committed to the cause. We can simply redirect a lot of misspent foreign aid.

<snip>

I'll defer to you, my dear, as I've said my piece. God bless America and all those who go in harm's way. :flag:

It sounds as if we agree more than disagree as I am 100% on board with your paragraphs here! No need to defer to me, I appreciate the great back-and-forth we've had tonight. :)

Ashley, to answer your question, and as I think I've mentioned before but maybe didn't make clear enough, no I don't think we do nothing; I just think we need to make smarter choices as to solutions that will be effective. As outlined in the article Jukerado posted, containment sounds like a viable option, but I'm in my infancy on studying ISIS so I wouldn't be so bold as to presume to know the most effective solution for eliminating the threat they pose. All I know is that doing harm to another in retaliation for the harm they caused, which they perpetrated because they felt harmed is a never-ending cycle leading to death and destruction for even more involved. There has to be a better way.

Thank you for the great conversation tonight!

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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14 Nov 2015 21:44 #18 by Ashley
Replied by Ashley on topic 60 reported dead in Paris
It has been a great conversation. Thanks as well.

Years ago I thought that there had to be a better way. Bottom line though is that you can't negotiate with terrorists. They would rather see you dead and are willing to die in the process.
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15 Nov 2015 08:29 #19 by NeutralGuy
I am in no way saying we throw our troops back over there to babysit but I do not want to see crap like this happen on our own soil.

I only hope that the powers that be take a stand and take them out. I am very sorry innocent people will get hurt from the bombings but how many Americans will get hurt if we do not get more aggressive?

As I said these people are monsters and they will use the innocent as human shields.

I can't fix this problem I can only support my country and my troops and as a nation we need to keep these wackos off our own soil.

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15 Nov 2015 09:22 #20 by ScienceChic
No, you can't negotiate with terrorists; however, you can do things that undermine their strengths, reduce their ability to recruit, and hasten their downfall through internal means. Certainly we need to bolster our own defenses to protect our own citizens here, my only fear, what I absolutely do not want to see happen, is that we take the war to them. We cannot fight on their soil and win, we cannot arm their "enemies" and win, and that's already been proven by the results of the last 30 years (Jon Stewart on the history of our involvement in the Middle East: on.cc.com/1P0KnjS ). Let them keep killing their own people (if that article is to be believed, they are essentially committing genocide against the Shia), eventually the victims will get sick of it and rise up to defend themselves, or they will run out of people to kill if they are kept contained. If claiming territory is their be-all, end-all goal, focus on stopping that by bolstering our true allies' defenses.

'People who have nothing to live for always find something to die for, and then they want you to die for it, too.' -Kenneth Patchen

I found a rebuttal to the “What ISIS Really Wants” article in The Atlantic, published by Muslim Matters. I think it's worth consideration.
What is “Islamic”? A Muslim Response to ISIS and The Atlantic
Daniel Haqiqatjou and Dr. Yasir Qadhi
February 23, 2015

Graeme Wood's “What ISIS Really Wants,” published in the March 2015 edition of The Atlantic, has quickly become the most widely read article on the militant group. Indeed, it is becoming the most read article ever published by The Atlantic.

Popular as it is, Wood's essay is deeply flawed and alarmingly tone-deaf – dangerously so.


Keep in mind ISIS does not represent all Muslims:
What Muslims Are Saying About The Paris Attacks
Haytham Soliman, Muhammad Wajid Akhter and Hena Zuberi
November 14, 2015


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"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
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