60 reported dead in Paris

13 Nov 2015 16:02 #1 by NeutralGuy
• At least 60 people have died in the attacks, CNN affiliate BFMTV reported.

• At least six shootings took place in Paris and three explosions took place at the Stade de France in Saint-Denis late Friday, CNN affiliate BFMTV said. Two or three gunmen entered the Bataclan concert hall while opening fire on law enforcement, BFMTV reported. A source earlier told CNN there were six to eight hostage takers, citing a person they were talking to inside the venue.


www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/world/paris-shooting/

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13 Nov 2015 19:45 #2 by otisptoadwater
We had a chance to fight what is now ISIS on their home turf. Maybe our troops left Iraq too soon? Consider that when you find yourself worrying about having to fight them here. Do I need to say that our elected leadership and the people who put them in office are to blame or is that beating a dead horse? Suck it up folks "we" voted for this.

I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the Government take care of him; better take a closer look at the American Indian." - Henry Ford

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges; When the Republic is at its most corrupt the laws are most numerous. - Publius Cornelius Tacitus

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14 Nov 2015 08:14 #3 by Photo-fish
Sure thing!
As long as you're also willing to suck it up and consider that "we" voted for the guy who de-stabilized this region to begin with and place blame there as well.
That carcass is still worthy of beating, no?

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14 Nov 2015 10:19 #4 by Jukerado
Replied by Jukerado on topic 60 reported dead in Paris
The Middle East was destabilized long before any of us or our great-great-great-great (etc) ancestors first drew breath. While U.S. government intentions may have somehow been on the right course, we had no business sending troops to the M.E. We had no plan to "win the peace". We lost far too many good men and women in the attempt to somehow bring democracy to an area that will never accept it. At least I think that was the plan. We couldn't maintain a presence. At some point we had to draw down, and the local powers knew this, and only had to wait it out.

Let me temper my remarks by stating that I'm a proud US Army airborne infantry veteran. I have done, and seen, and know that those in power should listen to those in the trenches. They rarely do.

There were no outside forces responsible for the creation of ISIS. They didn't suddenly appear overnight - this has been long planned. We can all certainly agree with French president Hollande that they are 'barbarians'. But - they are committed barbarians, far beyond any mindset the Western world can muster or understand. Beheading people and suicide by bomb vest? Making millions through sex slave trafficking? Destroying historical and archaeological sites that have stood for centuries? Conform or die.

It would be lovely to have a Coke and a smile. But all the coexist stickers on the planet will not affect ISIS. They are unbending and unyielding, and they have opened a door that may well prove impossible to close.

Here is my prediction, for what it's worth. World leaders will decry the actions of ISIS. There will be "outrage" and "condemnation". There will probably be a concert to raise money for the victims, and radical islamic terrorism will not be mentioned. An appropriately measured response - probably bombing a few ammo dumps and training camps - will take place with a very measured number of aircraft. There will be a lot of namaste-ing and wishful thinking and candlelight vigils, then Miley will do something disgusting or a "real housewife of somewhere" will have a sex scandal, and heads will pivot in those directions. And ISIS will march onward without giving a damn what the rest of the world thinks or does. Evil cannot be legislated, or reasoned with.

I know I sound like Mr. Sunshine here... the simple fact is, this force has a plan and a mission and a commitment to evil that can't be stopped by sanctions and finger-wagging. They're not coming to any peace talks, or taking a chair at the negotiating table. These are barbarians who are willing to cut off someone's head and videotape it. Only three months ago they beheaded 82-year old Khaled Asaad, a scholar who wouldn't cooperate when ISIS wanted to raid Palmyra. But that's yesterday's news.

ISIS is recruiting in numbers we cannot comprehend. This is no hurricane or wildfire. It's not going away by next weekend or the next news cycle.

As Americans are occupied with protests and more rights and complaints and whining, ISIS is building its forces exponentially. The threat is real and is the most crucial issue of our time. Buy more ammo, and vote wisely.
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14 Nov 2015 11:32 #5 by ScienceChic
Thank you Jukerado for your thoughtful words, and for your service. I, too, have been seeing a common theme in media and facebook posts that this was somehow unexpected, or we are "now in danger" from terrorism, and we need to "go bomb them and wipe Islamists off the face of the earth". We've been at war for over a decade, and the global issues stem back millennia. I agree that terrorists have no interest in peace, and that we should never have gone in with troops - you can't force a democracy on a people, they have to choose it for themselves, and fight for it themselves or they will never own the process of democracy. However, I disagree that we need to buy more ammo. IMO, acts of terrorism are brought about by a driving need for revenge, a never-ending cycle of retaliation for pain and suffering that bounces back and forth like a deadly ping pong ball.

Someone has to be the stronger party and say enough is enough. You cannot control the actions of others, you can only control your own. We need to be the first to say we're done fighting with others. Hate and war and violence breeds only more hate and war and violence. The cycle must be broken, and it does not take the weaker party to do that, it takes the stronger.


"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
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14 Nov 2015 12:38 - 14 Nov 2015 12:57 #6 by Jukerado
Replied by Jukerado on topic 60 reported dead in Paris
Sorry, I should have explained better ... I'm not for invading anyone, anywhere. I would very much prefer to turn my guns into plowshares.

I believe that as a nation, the US of A can't afford to be the world's policeman any longer. I know it's complicated and I'm certainly no international diplomat. I used to be an optimist, but over the years I've become more of a realist. World peace just isn't going to happen, despite all the peaceful intentions that can possibly be mustered. ISIS doesn't want peace. They want domination, submission, eradication, and they don't care what we have to say.

"Buy more ammo" is a common exhortation among a lot of folks I know when these events occur; meaning at a personal level, I'm not negotiating with anyone who steps onto our property wielding a sword and an AK-47. Honestly, I'm no hunker-in-the-bunker maniac. "Buy more ammo" means more ammo for defense, not offense. It provides considerable peace of mind to think that I won't be watching my family or yours dragged away by some psychopaths while thinking, "Y'know, I really should've bought more ammo..."

I know how the Book ends, and I know where I'm going. I believe in loving my neighbor, and the Golden Rule. But I also think in the near future, we are in for some very perilous times right here on the home turf, and there are truly evil men who must be fought.
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14 Nov 2015 15:44 #7 by Ashley
Replied by Ashley on topic 60 reported dead in Paris
And coming to a town near you. The terrorists will stop at nothing. And being the stronger party and doing nothing only invites them to continue their acts. Do something over there and/or be prepared to do something here.

None of this hits home until we are impacted. Is France enough or do Americans need to see more of it here?
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14 Nov 2015 17:06 #8 by otisptoadwater
I want to assign blame and I think there's plenty of evidence that King Barry and his staff are to blame for the most recent episode of violence in Paris. Who kicked over the Hornets nest first is hardly the concern at this point in time.

We are no longer in a strategic situation, those who mean us harm are on our shores and walking among us every day. For me this hearkens back to the late 1970s and 1980s and events that the IRA and the Baader-Minehoff Red Army Faction carried out across Europe during that time. The bad news is that they are already here and they have the motives and the capabilities to carry out acts of terror strictly because they want to and because they can. Our elected leadership has been asleep at the wheel for too long and we are going to pay to the consequences right here at home. I hope I'm 100% wrong about that, hope isn't reality and I'm prepared for what may come even if it's the worst case scenario. I encourage everyone to take similar measures. We should be looking at the model Israeli citizens follow because it's not unlikely that we're going to see bombings, shootings, and other attacks on public venues and out infrastructure. Call me Chicken Little and prove me wrong, I want to be proven wrong in this particular instance.

My main point is that now is not the time for internal squabbles, that time is long past us. Now is the time to prepare, prevent, and vanquish ISIS and other terrorist organizations who are prepared to cause harm to our allies in the Western World and especially within the borders of our own nation. Keep an eye on the soft targets and get ready for more attacks, it's not a question of if they will occur, it's when.

I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the Government take care of him; better take a closer look at the American Indian." - Henry Ford

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges; When the Republic is at its most corrupt the laws are most numerous. - Publius Cornelius Tacitus
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14 Nov 2015 18:20 - 14 Nov 2015 18:23 #9 by ScienceChic
Jukerado, thank you for the clarification on arming for defense as opposed to offense. I had a feeling that was what you meant, and that works for me.

Ashley, I don't think we need to do nothing; on the contrary, I think there is much good that we could do. When it's all said and done, it's an individual who chooses violence, usually one who is desperate, angry, lonely, fearful, envious, or greedy. When you sit down and listen to try to figure out what your enemy's emotional motivation is, perhaps there is another solution that can be found that won't continue to feed the cycle of violence.
  • People who are starving are desperate and will do anything for their loved ones - help them grow food and create potable water.
  • People who are angry at the loss of a loved one will act out in anger at those they hold responsible - hold those accountable who have acted illegally and change policies to end the path of death.
  • People who envy others for what they have can be helped up with loans and education, relief efforts, infrastructure building - improvements in quality of life.
  • People who are fearful that their way of life is coming to an end, or that they are being targeted and persecuted, will become defensive if they see no plan of action that seems do-able or fair.
Happy people, those who feel life is fair, who have enough to eat, who feel they can make a way for themselves without persecution, and provide a better life for their children are not people who strap suicide vests to their chests. Build those people up, create more of those people and the terrorist organizations will find no new recruits from which to draw. That is how you defeat ISIS, because otherwise they have an endless supply of the general population from which to draw and you cannot kill entire nations.

It doesn't always have to come down to bombing nations, or calling to eliminate entire ethnic or religious groups. We have perpetuated a cycle of violence, going back several presidencies on both sides of the aisle, and by doing so we have given motivation to those who would likely have not done harm otherwise because they are now angry, hurt, desperate. Those who would do evil use those emotions to recruit and motivate. That's why I shared the picture above that I did - you cannot stop hate with more hate, and it takes the stronger party to sit down, listen to the other side, and make a better choice to help, not hurt. It's easy to retaliate and cause harm back, that's the action of the weak and the desperate.

America is better than that.

On the absurd American response to the violence in France by Astronautalis :

Here in France, the streets are full, partly out of routine, and partially out of defiance. This is a very proud people, and i find myself circumspect and heart broken when i hear them speak about last nights events. And yet, i am endlessly inspired and moved by their strength in the face of it all.

Personally, i have had very conflicted feelings, watching the American response to all of this. <snip> I have always been very cynical about hashtag "slacktivism", and the politicization of tragedy, but seeing it from this angle, it appears astoundingly narcissistic and self serving. No matter how much we watch the news, how much we pour over twitter, we don't have the whole story, and we are totally incapable of providing an answer. And I think it is high time we all stop pretending that we have one.

This is not your time to shine. This is not your time to finally win some argument you are having with the universe in your head. This is a time for empathy, and solidarity. Let's all take a break from the sloganeering, take a note from the French playbook, and live the ever loving sh** out of our lives.

For, there is no greater act of defiance.


"The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.“
-Albert Camus

(emphasis mine)

If you'd like to help in a direct way: www.bustle.com/articles/123798-how-to-he...matter-where-you-are

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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14 Nov 2015 18:51 #10 by NeutralGuy
It does not matter who is in the White House, be it Republican or Democrat, and it is high time that all of America realizes that and come together so that the words “Home of the FREE” mean it.

The US and their Allies do not target innocent people to make a statement, their attacks are clearly strategically targeting those that empower these monsters.

ISIS and Al-Qaeda do not care, they have no morals.

I will support my country and our troops and will not bow down to these monsters!! I say no more and if that means targeting areas with a high concentration of these monsters, so be it.

I know it will not break the cycle but we MUST do something to break them so that they can’t keep this up!!!

World Peace is not in their vocabulary.

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