A Scientific Challenge to Carl Sagan.... maybe...

11 Jun 2010 07:18 #1 by bailey bud
Let me preface this with the statement that I have NO dog in this fight.

I'm every bit as comfortable with theistic evolution as I am with old earth creationists. I do not feel any of these world views challenges the Bible, since the Bible was not written as a book of science.

That said - I grew up during the height of Carl Sagan's popularity. I was a real fan of Cosmos .

So - I'm surprised when researchers find a planet that possibly developed over millions of years.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2010/0 ... ed-quickly

(we're a very long way from 6,000 years ---- and I doubt science will ever take us there - but that doesn't bother me, one bit).

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11 Jun 2010 08:16 #2 by Rockdoc
I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make. Could you spell it out more for me please?

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11 Jun 2010 08:29 #3 by bailey bud
Doc - ---- I grew up with "Billions and billions of years....." Carl Sagan drilled that into my mind.

This finding (I'm not qualified to assess the merit of it) is interesting to me - in that maybe we're not billions of years in the making.

As I said - I'm a non-combatant when it comes to the age of the earth/world/what have you.

I'm every bit as comfortable with a 12 billion year old universe as I am a million year old one. The age of the world has no bearing on my world view. I think it's fascinating and miraculous, no matter what its age, and no matter what physical process brought it about.

I simply think it's curious and interesting that science can observe a planet in the making - and that it appears to occur faster science might predict.

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18 Jun 2010 14:22 #4 by TPP
All I know for sure is that Carl Sagan is a believer NOW!

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18 Jun 2010 15:25 #5 by Wayne Harrison
Carl Sagan never said billions and billions of years. He said, "A galaxy is composed of gas and dust and stars - billions upon billions of stars."

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24 Jul 2010 17:24 #6 by ScienceChic
bb- the story you linked to is talking about a gas giant planet and those will have faster rates of formation than a more solid one like ours.
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Gas_G ... y_999.html

Here's the actual article, and there's nothing (pun intended!) earth-shattering about the timing of the formation of the gas giant:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/reprint/329/5987/57.pdf

Our images of b Pictoris b provide direct evidence that massive giant planets can form rapidly, on time scales of a few million years within circumstellar disks (32). This is in agreement with studies of the dispersion of primordial disks around young intermediate-mass stars, which yield typical disk lifetimes of between <3 and 6My (16).


As for the Earth, it may be 4.5 billion years old, give or take a little (I can't find it now, but somewhere recently I saw a paper that modified the formation date by a million years), but it only took millions of years to form, not billions. (Otherwise we wouldn't be here b/c the planet would still be working on becoming hospitable for life.)
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/geo_timeline.html

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html

The best age for the Earth comes not from dating individual rocks but by considering the Earth and meteorites as part of the same evolving system in which the isotopic composition of lead, specifically the ratio of lead-207 to lead-206 changes over time owing to the decay of radioactive uranium-235 and uranium-238, respectively.
To be precise, this age represents the last time that lead isotopes were homogeneous througout the inner Solar System and the time that lead and uranium was incorporated into the solid bodies of the Solar System. The age of 4.54 billion years found for the Solar System and Earth is consistent with current calculations of 11 to 13 billion years for the age of the Milky Way Galaxy (based on the stage of evolution of globular cluster stars) and the age of 10 to 15 billion years for the age of the Universe (based on the recession of distant galaxies).


"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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25 Jul 2010 16:47 #7 by ScienceChic
Found it!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10577055
Earth younger than previously thought, say scientists
12 July 2010 Last updated at 23:04 ET

Researchers say their investigation shows the Earth is 70 million years younger than the 4.537 billion-year-old planet "we had previously imagined".

By comparing the amount of 182-tungsten in the mantle to the amount found in meteorites, the researchers could work out how long it took for Earth to fully differentiate into mantle and core.
Dr Rudge explained that, for these two methods to agree, the formation of the Earth would have had to have been "rapid early on, then there was some hiatus and more gradual accretion".

This meant, he said, that instead of Earth forming over 30 million years, it took closer to 100 million years.

The paper: http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v3/n ... eo872.html

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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