Religion - Uses and Abuses Through the Ages

Hello, everyone. I'm not quite sure how to begin this thread. I've been discussing it with ScienceChic and she suggested we just go with it in this forum. So here goes.

For background:

I'm a Columbine Dad. We're a Columbine and Platte Canyon family. Our journey of healing has been long and arduous to say the least.

Following the tragedy at Columbine High School, my life and the lives of my kids were turned upside down when my first wife committed suicide (won't temper this in any way) almost exactly six months later. After that, our wheels came off completely.

Even with the help of the community and the nation, ours was a downward spiral. In my loss and confusion, I turned to religion for answers. I wasn't a very religious person before these events, and I really didn't have time following them to be very religious either. I started reading the Bible and praying virtually every single night asking God for some kind of a sign that I'd be able to survive this torture and still be their for my kids. I'll be very honest here - I didn't get any answers. There were no miracles for me. For my daughter - yes, there were many. For my Son - yes, he escaped physically unharmed. For me - I still have to live with survivor's guilt because I was so very far away when all of this went down at the school. There were no overt signs that God was even listening, especially when I looked back at how our personal lives suffered following the suicide.

My own church stepped up. My Pastor was incredible - no expectations, all heart, and all there on a very regular basis. We'd go to lunch. He'd listen as I poured my heart out. He organized a fund raiser for my family that the kids in the church put on. They raised a lot of money for my family.

Churches in the community organized help for us, and for other families affected by this tragedy. Meals came regularly. They cleaned our house for us regularly. They pretty much came to our rescue in so many ways as did other non-religious organizations, as well.

Still nothing. Extreme gratitude for what everyone did - very much so. Some kind of sign that God, somehow had a hand in all of this - not so much. One could say these churches and other organizations were acting through God in doing their incredibly generous, caring aid and assistance to my family and me. I guess that would be logical. I just wasn't "feeling" it, though. I looked at the people who were doing all of this and marveled at their generosity, at their caring, at their genuine concern for us. I didn't feel, however, that that was coming from God, though. I saw it as coming from their own hearts through that free will so many now talk about when it comes to God's relationship with mankind.

Wow, this is getting way longer than I intended it to. The reason I'm posting this here is to continue to try and find answers and to try to banish my own demons somehow regarding my own PTSD I suffer from as a result of what I and my family went through. If discussing this helps others, that's also part of my mission in doing this. It ain't easy to share things as personal as these things are, but it's so very, very necessary for us all as far as I'm concerned.

I've been so very blessed to have met the love of my life and to be able to cherish both her love for me and the wisdom she brought to our relationship. How she could love someone like me with all the baggage I brought to the table is something only she has the answer to. I know I've put her through some very difficult times, but she's never wavered, and has actually saved me from myself on more than one occasion.

My initial question to get things started: when someone, anyone, suffers a traumatic event, is it commonplace for them to search out "religion" in their grief and their confusion? If so, why? If so, why not?

As a corollary question, is it also possible that churches, themselves, sometimes take "advantage" of those types of situations, or are their intentions pure in helping the way they do? Again, if so, why? If so, why not?



Edited to add: Another thing I though about last night, very late last night but was getting too tired to include it then, has to do with that "free will" I mentioned earlier. If mankind has "free will" as granted by God, do some also use that free will to do harm to others secure in the knowledge their acts, no matter how heinous they may be, will ultimately be forgiven anyway?

This one's a tough one if we're totally honest with ourselves. Personally, I believe there are people who use religion as a shield of sorts, a shield behind which they do not necessarily have to really think for themselves. A shield that gives them a platform, if you will, to say and do things in the name of God that they wouldn't necessarily do otherwise. A shield to hide behind, to shelter them from their own very personal demons and issues.

Think about it. There are lots of examples out there. In the present day and age, the focus appears to be the highest on the Islamic extremist activities in the Middle East. Back here in the U.S., we, as a more "Christian" society tend to sit back, tsk tsk what's going on because it's just so "anti-Christian" of those Muslims to be doing such things. And yet, we fail to acknowledge our own failings in that regard in the very same breath. We tend to justify those emotions along the lines of the New Testament having allowed us to evolve past the barbarity being shown by terrorist Jihadists. "Oh, the Religion of Peace isn't so peaceful, now, is it"? That phrase keeps popping up all the time in social networks. Is it really so hard for us to grasp the contradiction in that we do this in the same breath as we engage in torture, drone strikes, and military activities (both overt and covert) to address "human rights abuses" in others that we fail to see in ourselves.



These aren't easy questions to answer honestly. I don't know of any churches anywhere that don't have some level of outreach and charitable activities. But, in my experience, I also know of some churches that tried to prey on members of my family (figuratively speaking, of course).

I turned to religion for help. I found my own spirituality. It didn't ultimately include belonging to a church or embracing a specific religion or denomination. My spirituality is still under development thanks to those who love me as much as they do - my wife, my kids, my extended family and friends. And I do thank God for all of them.

With that, I'll turn it over to MMT members to discuss further. Also know, if there are any questions you'd like to ask of me either in the thread itself or in a private message, please feel free to do so.

Thank you all and God bless.

For anyone interested, I've finished a more detailed version of what I said here in my personal blog:

thepeacechallenge.blogspot.com/2014/12/r...uses-and-abuses.html

Ran across this article just now: www.cnn.com/2014/12/19/living/atheist-10...sr=sharebar_facebook

Stopped me right in my tracks!

From the article:

Here are the "Ten Non-Commandments" chosen as the winners:
1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.
2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.
3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world.
4. Every person has the right to control of their body.
5. God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life.
6. Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.
7. Treat others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.
8. We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations.
9. There is no one right way to live.
10. Leave the world a better place than you found it.

From a "religious" perspective, should this be a part of any discussion like the one in this thread?

ZHawke wrote: There were no overt signs that God was even listening, especially when I looked back at how our personal lives suffered following the suicide.

My own church stepped up. My Pastor was incredible - no expectations, all heart, and all there on a very regular basis. We'd go to lunch. He'd listen as I poured my heart out. He organized a fund raiser for my family that the kids in the church put on. They raised a lot of money for my family.

Churches in the community organized help for us, and for other families affected by this tragedy. Meals came regularly. They cleaned our house for us regularly. They pretty much came to our rescue in so many ways as did other non-religious organizations, as well.

Still nothing. Extreme gratitude for what everyone did - very much so. Some kind of sign that God, somehow had a hand in all of this - not so much.

Just a quick thought. You needed help. The congregation of people with which you share your faith (and others) stepped up and gave you that help.

Why is that not a sign that God was involved?

What type of sign were you expecting, other than for good people to step in to try and aid in the healing?

Nobody that matters wrote: Just a quick thought. You needed help. The congregation of people with which you share your faith (and others) stepped up and gave you that help.

Why is that not a sign that God was involved?

What type of sign were you expecting, other than for good people to step in to try and aid in the healing?

I'm not sure. That's just part of my own "issues" that I'm still trying to deal with. I don't specifically "know" what I was looking for, if anything. I certainly wasn't expecting the magnitude of generosity my family received. Eventually, my thoughts turned to how to give thanks for everything received, how to give back somehow. I'm still trying.

"Remain still,have courage and wait for signs"....paraphrasing a Crow or Cheyenne sentiment..The topic you so valiantly verbalized is a universal theme. Your despair is that of the world and you are NOT alone in your search. STRUCTURED religion was never part of my search...a metaphysical approach became what I considered "True North" and just for ME, it allowed some sense of peace and acceptance. WE ARE HERE TO OVERCOME OUR ILLUSION OF SEPARATENESS...Thich Nhat Hanh

I don't know if I was really as clear as I could have been when I OP'ed this thread. I basically shared what I did as a sort of intro in the hopes it would spur discussion more on religion than on me or my journey. This thread is not, nor is it intended to be about "me". Rather, it was hopefully intended to be a catalyst, of sorts, to get a discussion going on religion and how it has been used throughout the ages, both positive and negative. Those uses can be on an individual basis and on a more "global" basis. I also posed some questions in my OP to try to help this along.

So, thanks for the feedback received so far, and if I wasn't clear enough on that, my apologies.

Hopefully, a thoughtful, reasoned dialogue will continue in that regard.

ZHawke

Religious "tolerance" is a conundrum, in my view. I found this video on a social network site and am sharing it here to give the reader an idea of what I'm trying to say:



Part of my personal "issue" with religion is that I'm not really quite sure what "message" the individual who posted this video is really trying to send.

Reality is, in the U.S. we also have people with very rigid "Christian" beliefs and core values. They are sometimes even referred to as the "American Taliban": adultthought.ucsd.edu/.../the_american_taliban.html

A couple of notables on this list of people who arguably have millions of "Christian" followers includes none other than George H.W. and George W. Bush. There are many others who espouse even worse than what the Bushes did/do. Some of those quoted in the list of notables say things and espouse things that literally make me want to throw up a little bit in my mouth - especially with regard to their stances on women and homosexuals.

I'm struggling right now with my own beliefs and doubts when it comes to man's inhumanity towards other men (a broad, very inclusive, generalization of humankind). I do not condone rigidity in the Islamic faith. Neither do I condone it in the Christian faith. Trying to find fault with any faith of the world is, in my view, a large part of why these faiths fight between and even amongst themselves rather than striving to achieve peace on Earth instead of dominating it (Earth).

Is life REALLY that much of a contradiction?

I think people make too big a deal of religion. Don't get me wrong, in my opinion a belief in a higher power is essential to living a good life. I'm saying that they make too big a deal of the flavor of religion. Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, Pastafarian, Pagan, Druid, whatever...

Just make it simple. I've seen pages and pages and pages of posts debating the intricacies of translations and ancient word usage in order to glean some insight into the original intentions of Jesus. I've seen huge raging debates about the meaning of cherry picked passages from other holy texts.

I've tried to follow them, I thought that knowing more would help me to make my faith a more powerful influence in my life.

Now I think I'm trying a new tack. KISS. Keep It Simple, Stupid. There's commonalities between all the major religions. That's where I figure I'll focus. I could learn not to eat fish n Friday, or to stay away from anything with a cloven hoof, or to dress a cetain way, or speak a certain way... but all that is fluff. It's just like wearing a broncos jersey .vs. a Raiders jersey. Different variants on a theme.

Be Good. Do good things. Help others. Don't hurt others.

That's about it. Stick with the idea of "Be good" and you really can't go wrong.

Oh, the other thing to remember is that this world we live in right now is not heaven. It's dirty, bloody, gross and nasty. Sure there's beauty and light, but there's equal doses of ugly darkness. Bad stuff happens to good people. I came to this realization when the disabilities showed up in my infant son. I thought "How could God do that to a baby?" It took me a long time to realize that God didn't do it, nor did any other entity. It wasn't good or evil, it just was. That's life, because this ain't heaven.

Be good. In spite of everything else, be good. Help others. It won't change the world, but it'll make it easier to handle the world.

Nobody that matters wrote: I think people make too big a deal of religion. Don't get me wrong, in my opinion a belief in a higher power is essential to living a good life. I'm saying that they make too big a deal of the flavor of religion. Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, Pastafarian, Pagan, Druid, whatever...

Just make it simple. I've seen pages and pages and pages of posts debating the intricacies of translations and ancient word usage in order to glean some insight into the original intentions of Jesus. I've seen huge raging debates about the meaning of cherry picked passages from other holy texts.

I've tried to follow them, I thought that knowing more would help me to make my faith a more powerful influence in my life.

Now I think I'm trying a new tack. KISS. Keep It Simple, Stupid. There's commonalities between all the major religions. That's where I figure I'll focus. I could learn not to eat fish n Friday, or to stay away from anything with a cloven hoof, or to dress a cetain way, or speak a certain way... but all that is fluff. It's just like wearing a broncos jersey .vs. a Raiders jersey. Different variants on a theme.

Be Good. Do good things. Help others. Don't hurt others.

That's about it. Stick with the idea of "Be good" and you really can't go wrong.

Oh, the other thing to remember is that this world we live in right now is not heaven. It's dirty, bloody, gross and nasty. Sure there's beauty and light, but there's equal doses of ugly darkness. Bad stuff happens to good people. I came to this realization when the disabilities showed up in my infant son. I thought "How could God do that to a baby?" It took me a long time to realize that God didn't do it, nor did any other entity. It wasn't good or evil, it just was. That's life, because this ain't heaven.

Be good. In spite of everything else, be good. Help others. It won't change the world, but it'll make it easier to handle the world.

If more folks approached religion like this it would be a much better world.