Did Osama Win?

NPR was interviewing an author this week on All Things Considered who put out this theory.
OBL first went to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets and made life hell on a superpower, both economically and militarily. Osama really believed that he helped bring down the godless communists. (Both Osama and Reagan working together to bring down the socialist athiests, eh?)

And by funding/planning both World Trade I & World Trade II operations to bring them down, he did serious damage to the US financially and caused a big loss of civil liberties and took the law enforcement community from fighting domestic crime to spending short money and funds on the War on Terror.

I do wonder if we would have just shrugged off and moved on after the towers fell, would the attacks have stopped or would they have increased?

There is some evidence that there have been hundreds of terrorists thwarted by the increased military and law enforcement presence, but these might not have happened if we hadn't invaded both Afghanistan & Iraq, and Kuwait, and Iraq before that.

So by creating the War on Terror, did we fall into Osama's tar pit?
Pretty amazing that a simple millionaire could so change the US economically, militarily, bureaucratic, etc.

I think in many respects he did.

For example, I think he hoped to draw us into ruinous wars, to go into debt to do so, and to weaken our international influence and moral authority.

I think we played right into his hands in many ways.

SS109 wrote: Pretty amazing that a simple millionaire could so change the US economically, militarily, bureaucratic, etc.

Not really, when you consider some SOB back in the 1970s who tried to poison his girlfriend with Tylenol caused hundreds of millions to curse his name every time they fumble with impossible to open "safety packaging".

Clinton ignored them and they did not stop.
I doubt that ignoring has any effect on those who live in the fantasy world of their mind. They seem to interpret the response of others as they wish. It is an extreme form of profiling, the same thing that people do everywhere. By profiling I mean posing or putting on an aire to impress others or be seen of them.

They band together and say "Yeah, we sure showed them, didn't we? Aren't we clever! Aren't they so stupid!".

major bean wrote: Clinton ignored them and they did not stop.
I doubt that ignoring has any effect on those who live in the fantasy world of their mind.

I don't think that ignoring them would have stopped them, but I don't think it would have NO effect, either. I think in this case it is possible that the cost we paid for responding instead of ignoring is probably greater than the cost would have been of ignoring them.

It's kind of like with law enforcement. You can't stop Every.Single.Crime without enormously expensive and draconion measures. So you decide what you can afford, as a society to tolerate.

SS109 wrote: There is some evidence that there have been hundreds of terrorists thwarted by the increased military and law enforcement presence, but these might not have happened if we hadn't invaded both Afghanistan & Iraq, and Kuwait, and Iraq before that.

When did the United States 'invade' Kuwait? If I remember correctly, that was Saddam during his 'mother of all wars' period.

AspenValley wrote:

major bean wrote: Clinton ignored them and they did not stop.
I doubt that ignoring has any effect on those who live in the fantasy world of their mind.

I don't think that ignoring them would have stopped them, but I don't think it would have NO effect, either. I think in this case it is possible that the cost we paid for responding instead of ignoring is probably greater than the cost would have been of ignoring them.

It's kind of like with law enforcement. You can't stop Every.Single.Crime without enormously expensive and draconion measures. So you decide what you can afford, as a society to tolerate.

The cost of ignoring them after the Twin Towers would have been the destruction of our national spirit and pride. We would have ceased to be a proud people. We would have become as the Europeans.

major bean wrote:

AspenValley wrote:

major bean wrote: Clinton ignored them and they did not stop.
I doubt that ignoring has any effect on those who live in the fantasy world of their mind.

I don't think that ignoring them would have stopped them, but I don't think it would have NO effect, either. I think in this case it is possible that the cost we paid for responding instead of ignoring is probably greater than the cost would have been of ignoring them.

It's kind of like with law enforcement. You can't stop Every.Single.Crime without enormously expensive and draconion measures. So you decide what you can afford, as a society to tolerate.

The cost of ignoring them after the Twin Towers would have been the destruction of our national spirit and pride. We would have ceased to be a proud people. We would have become as the Europeans.

I think that's pretty debatable. It's all in how it's framed. If you frame it that we are "backing down" from them, it might feel that way. If you frame it that they are just a bunch of petty-ante outlaws beneath our notice, other than as scumbags to be rounded up and dealt with, maybe not.

Basing important decisions on pride can get one into very deep trouble. Something about it coming before a fall?

While there's no question bin Laden's acts have led to vast expense and diversion of resourses for the US, I'm not sure it was a personal victory for him.

How would you of liked to live in that dump of a house for 6 years without ever going outside? And now he sleeps with the fishes.

Of course he won- because of you weak minded, religious right wing morons his attacks surpassed even his wildest dreams- He bankraupted the country, started a Holy War and recruited millions of supporters to his cause...And look at you-you wimps are still crying about it- You know who should be crying right now? Japan. A much larger desiaster and friends: a desiaster is a desiaster no matter who causes it, mother nature, or a person. Besides, and I know this isn't a popular centiment but by any measure 911 wasn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things..