American oil independence: Who is kidding who?

chickaree wrote: Lobbyists probably. i'd love to convert my vehicle to NG, but where to fill it?

One of my coworkers drives a NG Honda from C Springs every day, he says there are 6 stations in the metro area, but are any close enough?

The eviro types are pushing hard against NG and the fracking that is necessary to pump it out of Colorado deposits, so I don't know how long it will remain inexpensive.

Hydrogen cells for cars? I haven't updated my info but last time I heard it was more expensive energy wise to make the hydrogen than you received in benefits and that hydrogen cars would be highly explosive. Then again fire departments were all worried about being electrocuted in accidents with hybrid cars.

Infrastructure is the primary reason more cars are not NG powered. To pressurize it on site for a fast fill delivery that takes about as long to refill an automobile with NG as it does with gasoline isn't cheap. To use it in a car you need to pressurize it to a greater extent than is necessary for your home use. The system is affordable if you are operating a fleet of vehicles perhaps, but not necessarily for a commercial operation or an individual. You can purchase, or at least you used to be able to purchase, a system that would allow you to fill the vehicle at home every night. Honda was leasing them to the purchasers of their cars for about $80/month a few years ago (plus the additional $1500 to get it installed) and the NG Honda was somewhere around $7K more expensive than the gasoline version due to the lower volume of cars produced. If/when the price point drops to the point where the investment in the infrastructure isn't prohibitive and the cost of the vehicle itself isn't substantially higher, the switch will occur. If we enact a tax exemption/deduction for investment in the infrastructure that might hasten the willingness to make the investment from investors as well.

Given the existing infrastructure, it would probably be less expensive to go GTL than to equip most of the filling stations to sell compressed natural gas. A 50/50 NG/crude oil liquid fuel might even lower the emissions along the same lines as, or better than, adding 10% ethanol to gasoline does. I know that a vehicle that runs on pure NG gives off about half the NOx and about 75% of the CO2 of a gasoline engine with almost no particulate emissions at all, so one would have to think that a blended fuel would have some reductions associated with it.

The explosive hydrogen car is mostly a myth because hydrogen is lighter than air, as is natural gas. The reason that homes explode is that the gas gets trapped inside of the house, or under the soil, rather than escaping into the air as it would if the fuel container ruptured in an automobile collision. It might burn for the period of time the fuel was escaping, which would be quite short given the amount of fuel and the pressure, but even that would be better than a gasoline fire that started in the wake of a ruptured fuel tank is since the gas would be headed upwards rather than liquid hitting the ground and spreading out. If I remember my physics, rapid expansion also cools rather than heats - which would make a compressed gas less, not more, likely to explode rather than burn if the fuel tank ruptured.

Exxon makes 3 deepwater finds in the Gulf 2 massive oil and natural gas beds are first major discoveries since BP-inspired moratorium lifted

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43330420/ns/business-oil_and_energy/t/exxon-makes-deepwater-finds-gulf/?GT1=43001

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-a ... 9d6d2.html


..............."They told members of the committee at its meeting in Riverton that a natural gas-to-gasoline plant would cost about $1.7 billion to build and would convert 288 million cubic feet of natural gas to 34,000 barrels of gasoline a day.

At today’s prices, $34 worth of natural gas could be converted into $140 worth of gasoline at the facility, leaving a tidy profit for the facility’s owner and investors even after expenses, according to a feasibility study conducted by researchers at the federal Idaho National Laboratory."................

chickaree wrote: Lobbyists probably. i'd love to convert my vehicle to NG, but where to fill it?

Fill it up at home and have the US taxpayer pay for your compressor, they have an app for that.

Neptune, who is kidding who about your NG gassification plan? The latest attacks from the enviros are cocentrating on natural gas fracking dangers. NPR has been running a series of stories on both the dangers and pollution.

My dad was an engineer way before his time. He converted all our family vehicles to run on Butane in the 50's and 60's. We had a large butane tank in the trunk He used to convert farm equipment to butane.

SS109 wrote:

chickaree wrote: Lobbyists probably. i'd love to convert my vehicle to NG, but where to fill it?

Fill it up at home and have the US taxpayer pay for your compressor, they have an app for that.

Neptune, who is kidding who about your NG gassification plan? The latest attacks from the enviros are cocentrating on natural gas fracking dangers. NPR has been running a series of stories on both the dangers and pollution.

This is Wyoming. Dick Cheney's state. If the enviros get to uppity, they will shoot them in the face.

WayneH wrote: My dad was an engineer way before his time. He converted all our family vehicles to run on Butane in the 50's and 60's. We had a large butane tank in the trunk He used to convert farm equipment to butane.

Imagine trying to get away with something like this now. I suspect there are many regulations in place that would prevent such initiatives from being taken.

The thing that concerns me about NG is that it's heavily used for home heating and the price just goes up and up.

If we use it in large amounts for autos as well, wouldn't the prices go even higher?

Rockdoc Franz wrote: Came across comparative information on proven reserves in the US vs. a single field, Ghawar, in Saudi Arabia. A lot of numbers are being bantered around these days regarding the huge 1.5 trillion potential oil reserves in the US and that these rival the reserves in the Middle East. Visions of independence from foreign oil dance in many people's heads. But there is a HUGE difference between potential and proven. Potential does not equate into being produceable. The proven oil reserves in the US currently are 22.3 billion remaining, those of Ghawar, one of the largest oil fields in the world, stands at an estimated 140 billion, of which 74 billion remains to be produced. For argument's sake, let us assume that about 1/3 of the oil shale potential can actually be converted into proven reserves. This assumption takes into account shale reserves that are not commercially viable and shale reserves beneath urban areas. To have us realize such a bonanza, still requires not only opening government lands to drilling, but also massive mining efforts where the oil shale is at the surface. And, how long will it take to convert potential to proven? Between governmental regulations and environmentalists activity, I would not want to invest my IRA on that happening in a lifetime. So who are we kidding about becoming independent of foreign oil? The ONLY possibility remains in alternative energy for mainstream transportation and that does not mean electric vehicles, but say hydrogen powered transportation.

:hands:


Good post bro, it woulda been a great post if you didn't start laying some blame on "governmental regulations and environmentalists activity"... Like they are really hampering Natural Gas extraction now? Like they were overegulating Deepwater Horizon last summer?

Somebody with some knowledge had to tell these "drill baby drill" morons that there's nothin here. Thanks

pineinthegrass wrote: The thing that concerns me about NG is that it's heavily used for home heating and the price just goes up and up.

If we use it in large amounts for autos as well, wouldn't the prices go even higher?

I drive all the way to DIA for $3 on CNG now...$6 round trip

chickaree wrote: Lobbyists probably. i'd love to convert my vehicle to NG, but where to fill it?

You can buy a pump at home- It takes all night to fill, or there are pumps all over town..Dont covert, go to the GSA auctions in Aurora..You can pick up the whole vehicle for the price of a conversion..Last tuesday a 2004 CNG F-150 with 40k miles went for 5k...Nobody wants them...I mean dealers don't want them anyway..I got a van with 16,000 miles on it, plastic still on the back seats, smelled like brand new for $1900 ..I'm still drivin it..105,000 miles on it now and it runs like a top. Right up the hill. They are government vehicles, mine was used to shuttle prisoners at the fedral prison. I found a toll pass thing in the glove box and I used it for years..

http://autoauctions.gsa.gov/autoauction ... DFBPC11105