Wake up and smell the crazy...

By the way I think a big part of the reason why politics has shaded into psychosis is that deep down, people know that it's going down. Rather than face up to it, most people just dig in their heels and demand even more of the irrational crap that brought us to where we stand now.

I can agree with that.

We're seeing desperation set in.

Sorta looks like the fall of Rome, doesn't it?

Except in Rome- people still knew how to take care of themselves. They were not dependant upon a government check- they lived rural & had farms and raised livestock.

Rome fell into city states - and the people began fighting between themselves.

I'm sure it'll be much more civil this time!

BearMtnHIB wrote: Except in Rome- people still knew how to take care of themselves. They were not dependant upon a government check- they lived rural & had farms and raised livestock.

Rome fell into city states - and the people began fighting between themselves.

I'm sure it'll be much more civil this time!

In Rome itself, not so. People were far from self-sufficient, and it is estimated that up to 40% of the population towards the end was "on the dole" with free "bread and circuses". But that's not what caused the fall, it was the overextension of empire and a crushing burden of taxes to support the military. The free "bread and circuses" probably extended Rome's empire by at least a hundred years or so. Because, when it comes right down to it, social support keeps failing empires from coming apart from within. Taken to extremes, a social safety net that is originally meant to help those who cannot support themselves, becomes at some point a bribe paid by the well to do to the poor to keep them from turning on their masters. Interestingly, then as now in the United States, the estimated cost of "bread and circuses" amounted to about 7% of the GDP.

I'm half Italian and visited my Italian side of the family in Revenna and southern Italy and Rome- went to the museums and old churches and government buildings. Ravenna was a city state - as was most of Italy after Rome fell.

The area did not become a country again till the mid 1800's. Yes- the government kept the people occupied with the circus- fed a few christians to the lions every weekend for show, but the entire area fell into warring city states for hundreds of years after the fall. People scattered into the countryside from Rome, and they did live much more rural - much more self dependantly.

The government giveaways do remind me of Roman times- and those taxpayer paid football & baseball staduims look an awful lot like the coliseum!

BearMtnHIB wrote: I'm half Italian and visited my Italian side of the family in Revenna and southern Italy and Rome- went to the museums and old churches and government buildings. Ravenna was a city state - as was most of Italy after Rome fell.

The area did not become a country again till the mid 1800's. Yes- the government kept the people occupied with the circus- fed a few christians to the lions every weekend for show, but the entire area fell into warring city states for hundreds of years after the fall. People scattered into the countryside from Rome, and they did live much more rural - much more self dependantly.

The government giveaways do remind me of Roman times- and those taxpayer paid football & baseball staduims look an awful lot like the coliseum!

Modern Italy is having major debt issues like the US, the northern states want to secede from the southern states and Sicily. Seems most of the tax receipts come from the North and a lot of them are distributed to the poorer southern states.

It would be interesting if a region of America sued for secession because of economic reasons.

Those that can will those that can't won't survive.

SS109 wrote: It would be interesting if a region of America sued for secession because of economic reasons.

If there is still a country called "America" in 30 years I would be quite surprised.

Wake up and smell the crazy. I'm not sure when it was ever acceptable to spend more money than you made. To spend big when you only made a little. It's bad enough when the average taxpayer does it. It's even worse when big spenders do it - and go bust. But the worst situation? is when a federal government does it - spends so much that they create more debt than their country has ever seen before in its history - and then attempt to turn the issue into a political circus. Ask yourself: how much federal government do you really need and want in your life? because right now, Republican or Democrat, they're not responding to YOUR bottom line; they're responding to theirs... and unless you resent that, and do something about it now, with the coming election... you will be accepting their response to their bottom line... for the rest of your life.

AspenValley wrote:

SS109 wrote: It would be interesting if a region of America sued for secession because of economic reasons.

If there is still a country called "America" in 30 years I would be quite surprised.

I would be quite surprised if in thirty years Americans weren't having the same discussion, pretty much like they were 30 years ago. Funny how the more privileged you are the less you appreciate it. America is a strong and resilient country.