Jesus and Socialism

Dr Philban wrote:

bailey bud wrote: The Bible does teach a few things about wealth distribution (providing for widows and orphans would have a relatively high priority, and the early church lived in what was arguably an early version of a commune).

It also teaches a lot about giving. Curiously - the role models who gave to the church were the people who gave the least - but were least able to give, to begin with. (Widow's mite, the church at Philipi, and I'm sure many others)

I suspect one day, virtually all of us (me included) will be surprised when we see what the almighty really wanted the church to be and look like.

What are you talking about? The early church did not live in any sorts of communes. Show me archeologically, historically or scripturally these communes? (Dr. Philban... your residence atheist)

Um, just look at early monasteries. There is a long tradition of holy people living together in commune like communities.

And the early church was anti-capitalist banning Christians from loaning money with interest, why Jews became the bankers of Europe. Islam also condemns usury.

What do you make of the kibbutz model?

Isn't that arguably a form of socialism? Is it Biblical (obviously not based on New Testament teachings)?

Finally - socialism is mostly about property rights. Consider this verse:

Leviticus 25:23
The land must not be sold permanently, for the land belongs to me. You are only foreigners, my tenant farmers.

Again - is flys smack up against modern practice.

No - I don't really feel the Creator is a socialist - but I don't really imagine he'd approve of capitalism, either.

Catholic Jesuit communities are very socialist. The members give all their wages earned in the outside world to support the community. Jesuits aren't allowed to have money and very few possesions.
When they retire from work, the same community takes care of them.

SS109 wrote:

Dr Philban wrote:

bailey bud wrote: The Bible does teach a few things about wealth distribution (providing for widows and orphans would have a relatively high priority, and the early church lived in what was arguably an early version of a commune).

It also teaches a lot about giving. Curiously - the role models who gave to the church were the people who gave the least - but were least able to give, to begin with. (Widow's mite, the church at Philipi, and I'm sure many others)

I suspect one day, virtually all of us (me included) will be surprised when we see what the almighty really wanted the church to be and look like.

What are you talking about? The early church did not live in any sorts of communes. Show me archeologically, historically or scripturally these communes? (Dr. Philban... your residence atheist)

Um, just look at early monasteries. There is a long tradition of holy people living together in commune like communities.

And the early church was anti-capitalist banning Christians from loaning money with interest, why Jews became the bankers of Europe. Islam also condemns usury.

A monastery is a religious order, a college, I was discussing the general body of believers, the "church." And capitalism was a totally foreign concept in 1st century Roman Judea. And I'm not even going to attempt to touch your flawed concept of banking and Jews. The tone of your comment speaks volumes. You may want to look into some facts about usury and banking throughout the ages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury

bailey bud wrote: What do you make of the kibbutz model?

Isn't that arguably a form of socialism? Is it Biblical (obviously not based on New Testament teachings)?

Finally - socialism is mostly about property rights. Consider this verse:

Leviticus 25:23
The land must not be sold permanently, for the land belongs to me. You are only foreigners, my tenant farmers.

Again - is flys smack up against modern practice.

No - I don't really feel the Creator is a socialist - but I don't really imagine he'd approve of capitalism, either.

Stop conflating modern political and sociological concepts with the ancient Jewish, Christian and Roman milieu. A kibbutz is a modern communal creation

"The first kibbutzim (plural of “kibbutz”) were founded some 40 years before the establishment of the State of Israel (1948). Degania (from the Hebrew “dagan,” meaning grain), located south of Lake Kinneret, was established in 1909 by a group of pioneers on land acquired by the Jewish National Fund. Their founders were young Jewish pioneers, mainly from Eastern Europe, who came not only to reclaim the soil of their ancient homeland, but also to forge a new way of life. Their path was not easy: a hostile environment, inexperience with physical labor, a lack of agricultural know-how, desolate land neglected for centuries, scarcity of water and a shortage of funds were among the difficulties confronting them. Overcoming many hardships, they succeeded in developing thriving communities which have played a dominant role in the establishment and building of the state."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... bbutz.html

And that Leviticus quote above, God is the speaker, not another man, it's a theological concept, not politics.

So - you consider theology and politics non-overlapping magisteria?

I support separating theology and politics ---

My issue isn't that America doesn't act the way theology says it should act. My expectations for America aren't all that high.

My issue is primarily that so-called Christians don't act the way the Bible says they should act.

The words (and actions) of Christ - ought to give Christians pause before they jump on board the Tea Party bandwagon, shouting "amen."

I would add that I am most definately NOT a socialist. My schooling (University of Chicago) and travels (Soviet Union - before the wall fell)long since persuaded me that socialism does not work. At the same time, I'm very willing to be challenged by socialist thought. Even more significantly, I'm willing to allow the Biblical text make me squirm a little.

bailey bud wrote: I would add that I am most definately NOT a socialist. My schooling (University of Chicago) and travels (Soviet Union - before the wall fell)long since persuaded me that socialism does not work. At the same time, I'm very willing to be challenged by socialist thought. Even more significantly, I'm willing to allow the Biblical text make me squirm a little.

I don't care what you are. The topic of this thread is Jesus and Socialism and all I am suggesting is that the 1st century Jesus movement was not a socialistic community. They shared... yes, as much as churches through out the ages collected money and material for the poor and other members of their assemblies who are needy. They provided food and shelter for the movements travelers... yes, just as much as churches through out the ages have supplied circuit preaches and itinerant pastors food and shelter, especially when movement leaders were covering a wide area of concern. And yes... the churches through out the ages have offered religious orders where men and women could dedicate their lives to the service of the church and they gave their care and upkeep over to the church... but that was a personal and private choice that men and women made and it was not a model that the whole movement was required to follow. But at the same time, early members of the movement (and current members) usually held jobs, respected and supported the secular governments under which they lived, paid taxes, were mobil in that society, held secular public offices and found a balance between their spiritual lives and their secular lives.

Jesus himself and the church leaders that followed always taught that a person should be self-responsible, hold a meaningful job, be respectable to the secular government, obey laws, be content, be loving, be caring... but the early Jesus movement never taught that they were to remove themselves physically from the world they lived in and set up some "commune" or develop themselves as a sect aside from the rest of society. It's romantic to see Jesus as an early hippie, but what he taught was not new, was in the same vein of numerous other teachers and prophets of his time and history bears out that the Jesus movement did not turn in to some social and political movement that mimicked what we know today as socialism.

Reality and history proves otherwise. (Dr. Philban... your resident atheist)

Really depends on your view of what socialism was/is.

I see the socialist world view as closer to Christianity then capitalism. And you may believe that capitalism isn't that old, but I think it existed as long as man has.

The first successful hunter trading meat for other goods is an example of capitalism. Or the other hunter choosing to split his catch with other hunters in case he isn't so lucky next time is socialism.

SS109 wrote: Really depends on your view of what socialism was/is.

I see the socialist world view as closer to Christianity then capitalism. And you may believe that capitalism isn't that old, but I think it existed as long as man has.

The first successful hunter trading meat for other goods is an example of capitalism. Or the other hunter choosing to split his catch with other hunters in case he isn't so lucky next time is socialism.

It depends on facts... which you seem to be oblivious to. I really don't care... believe what you want to, damn the facts, damn history, damn all the research and two thousand years of scholarship... SS109 knows better than all the conventional wisdom. I bet you believe in god too!