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Do Voters Matter?
- Reverend Revelant
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- Mountain Legend
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07 Nov 2011 12:38 #11
by Reverend Revelant
Close... first Joe Q. Public has to realize that there shouldn't be any sides. Right, left, independent, libertarian, socialist... these are all categories and labels designed to keep us occupied and give us the feeling that we are participating in the "politics public." Smoke screen. It's really us against them... period. But even the Occupy groups are actually "working" for one of the above categories, therefore they have self-defeated themselves already. Look to history. This is a vicious cycle that has happened time and time again... revolution, stable government, kleptocrats and plutocrats and corpocrats, revolution again... the politicians and their cronies have the money to wait these cycles out, and then they slide right back into place where they were before. Viola.
Waiting for Armageddon since 33 AD
Replied by Reverend Revelant on topic Do Voters Matter?
chickaree wrote: Even though voters retain the power to "throw the bums out" the big money retains the power to ensure that the next guy we vote on is the same kind of bum. They've effectively silenced communocation between the parties so the chance of the two sides uniting in a single cause is remote at best. We did this tomourselves, and I see it continuing here every single day.
Close... first Joe Q. Public has to realize that there shouldn't be any sides. Right, left, independent, libertarian, socialist... these are all categories and labels designed to keep us occupied and give us the feeling that we are participating in the "politics public." Smoke screen. It's really us against them... period. But even the Occupy groups are actually "working" for one of the above categories, therefore they have self-defeated themselves already. Look to history. This is a vicious cycle that has happened time and time again... revolution, stable government, kleptocrats and plutocrats and corpocrats, revolution again... the politicians and their cronies have the money to wait these cycles out, and then they slide right back into place where they were before. Viola.
Waiting for Armageddon since 33 AD
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- FredHayek
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07 Nov 2011 13:03 #12
by FredHayek
:thumbsup: True, even the ones who try to remain pure find themselves defeated next election by their opponents who take the cash. Many of the new TEA Party politicians are way behind in fundraising because they don't want to be tainted.
But bipartisanship? Ironicaly, some of the most independent politicians like Ron Paul(R) and Dennis Kucinich(D) are in "safe" districts and don't have the need to kowtow to party bosses or special interests.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
Replied by FredHayek on topic Do Voters Matter?
chickaree wrote: Even though voters retain the power to "throw the bums out" the big money retains the power to ensure that the next guy we vote on is the same kind of bum. They've effectively silenced communocation between the parties so the chance of the two sides uniting in a single cause is remote at best. We did this tomourselves, and I see it continuing here every single day.
:thumbsup: True, even the ones who try to remain pure find themselves defeated next election by their opponents who take the cash. Many of the new TEA Party politicians are way behind in fundraising because they don't want to be tainted.
But bipartisanship? Ironicaly, some of the most independent politicians like Ron Paul(R) and Dennis Kucinich(D) are in "safe" districts and don't have the need to kowtow to party bosses or special interests.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
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- Reverend Revelant
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- Mountain Legend
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07 Nov 2011 19:00 #13
by Reverend Revelant
And neither of them as been able to make any headway on presidential bids... and they both have tried. Why, because special interest won't ever let it happen.
Waiting for Armageddon since 33 AD
Replied by Reverend Revelant on topic Do Voters Matter?
SS109 wrote:
chickaree wrote: Even though voters retain the power to "throw the bums out" the big money retains the power to ensure that the next guy we vote on is the same kind of bum. They've effectively silenced communocation between the parties so the chance of the two sides uniting in a single cause is remote at best. We did this tomourselves, and I see it continuing here every single day.
:thumbsup: True, even the ones who try to remain pure find themselves defeated next election by their opponents who take the cash. Many of the new TEA Party politicians are way behind in fundraising because they don't want to be tainted.
But bipartisanship? Ironicaly, some of the most independent politicians like Ron Paul(R) and Dennis Kucinich(D) are in "safe" districts and don't have the need to kowtow to party bosses or special interests.
And neither of them as been able to make any headway on presidential bids... and they both have tried. Why, because special interest won't ever let it happen.
Waiting for Armageddon since 33 AD
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- FredHayek
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07 Nov 2011 19:36 #14
by FredHayek
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
Replied by FredHayek on topic Do Voters Matter?
Or what sells in Cleveland and/or central Texas doesn't play in the rest of the nation.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
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- ScienceChic
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07 Nov 2011 23:10 #15
by ScienceChic
The problem with any president, whether Independent, Republican, or Democrat, is that the current corrupt system is too huge and supported by current politicians (though they'd never say this out loud) for any one person to effect change. It will take the force of the will of the people to do this, and that's what I see as the direction in which the OWS movements is headed. If not, as Dr Philban says, it will be a continuation of the more violent side of the cycle. Our history has been remarkable in that the first change of power after we established our independence was peaceful, and I retain hope that we've grown a little wiser as a species and can do so again without bloodshed and major upheaval. But then again, other days I'm cynical or even pessimistic about how far we've actually come/changed/learned, so who really knows?
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Do Voters Matter?
The problem with lobbyists is that the influence is secret and greed has become too important a factor. Yes, they play an important part in educating those who have the power to pass legislation that can profoundly impact those they represent and it's important to have advocates for every side of the issue so that educated, informed decisions can be made. If this were made public, say through depositions and testimony before Congress as a whole (not to individuals in Congress), then it removes the bribery component while allowing the advocacy which must remain.SS109 wrote: And "evil lobbyists" can easily become protectors depending on which side of the issue you are. Retired person? AARP, lobbies to keep Social Security for you. Hunt? The NRA lobbies to keep your access to shotguns. Work in the pharmaceutical industry? They lobby the FDA to decrease approval lead times.
I wonder if a independent Presidential candidate will ever emerge that tries to appeal to the moderates that will win him/her a victory over the Dem and GOP choices. This year might be the year for it to happen, except it looks like both Obama and Romney already are moderates who will keep us on the current path to ruin.
The problem with any president, whether Independent, Republican, or Democrat, is that the current corrupt system is too huge and supported by current politicians (though they'd never say this out loud) for any one person to effect change. It will take the force of the will of the people to do this, and that's what I see as the direction in which the OWS movements is headed. If not, as Dr Philban says, it will be a continuation of the more violent side of the cycle. Our history has been remarkable in that the first change of power after we established our independence was peaceful, and I retain hope that we've grown a little wiser as a species and can do so again without bloodshed and major upheaval. But then again, other days I'm cynical or even pessimistic about how far we've actually come/changed/learned, so who really knows?
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
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- Rockdoc
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- Mountain Legend
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08 Nov 2011 02:02 #16
by Rockdoc
Excellent. A ballot war would be far more preferable than a revolution. You've identified the real problem though, people organization and fundamental political education. Too many in D or R we trust. Then again there must be viable choices identified or the fall back position will be D or R again. Personally, I think the ballot approach will take too long and people will grow weary long before real results can be seen. Let the global economy crumble some more and frustrations will build to the point where some will take action. Our world is small these days and word gets around very quickly. A small uprising will quickly escalate into something that will become totally divisive.
Replied by Rockdoc on topic Do Voters Matter?
SS109 wrote: Do you think that Wall Street and/or big political donors actually control the goverment?
Or do you think they have some influence but voters still have the ability to throw out corrupt politicians?
Personally I think they exercise more influence than they should but I do believe voters can throw out the bums. Look how many incumbents the Tea Party threw out in 2010. But too often people choose (D) or (R) instead of who has been corrupted or not.
1%'rs? Only 1/2 the people in Congress and the Senate are in the 99%.
And would you support a political or voilent overthrow of the goverment?
I think America can still be saved with the ballot box, it is just harder to get people organized but possibly all the new media can help with this.
Excellent. A ballot war would be far more preferable than a revolution. You've identified the real problem though, people organization and fundamental political education. Too many in D or R we trust. Then again there must be viable choices identified or the fall back position will be D or R again. Personally, I think the ballot approach will take too long and people will grow weary long before real results can be seen. Let the global economy crumble some more and frustrations will build to the point where some will take action. Our world is small these days and word gets around very quickly. A small uprising will quickly escalate into something that will become totally divisive.
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