PrintSmith wrote: For the sake of discussion, let's accept that Zimmerman did confront Martin and demanded to know what he was doing in the neighborhood. What would you think happened next based on the final outcome? Would you think that Martin responded in a passive or an aggressive manner? Let us also, for the sake of discussion accept that after the initial contact Zimmerman demanded that Martin wait with him until the police, who had already been called, showed up. Again, based on the final outcome, do you think Martin complied or resisted?
Let's accept that Zimmerman was not part of any authorized in any way as a neighborhood watch. Let's accept that Zimmerman was told by authorities to not pursue Martin (that is a recorded fact) and that the real authorities were on their way, but he ignored the authorities in his zeal to apprehend a pedestrian. Let's accept that a stranger with no signs of authority, which he didn't have, demanded that Martin wait with him until the police showed and the stranger produced a weapon to assert his "authority". Let's accept that Martin did not need to comply with the demands of a stranger and had every right to resist. Let's accept that Zimmerman was totally out of bounds and instigated and escalated the situation until Martin was trying to defend himself against an armed stranger and then shot Martin instead of following orders from the authorities and the most basic of principles of a neighborhood watch but being armed and pursuing a stranger. Why would he comply with an armed stranger? Let's accept that none of us know if Zimmerman or Martin instigated physical contact. Let's accept that if you were accosted by a stranger barking order at you in your neighborhood that you would not submit meekly to their demands.
What sounds like happened next is that Martin, not recognizing a stranger who was trying to detain him without any authority to do so, tried to get away from the stranger who pursued him according to Martin's girlfriend who was on the phone with him at the time. I think most people who were being accosted by a stranger with nothing to identifying him as an authority, which he wasn't, would retreat and when aggressively pursued would turn and defend themselves against such a stranger. I know I would.
Would you, while walking in your neighborhood, let a stranger pursue you and demand that you wait with him, detained as it were, until the police arrived? Would pull over if a stranger with nothing identifying themselves as police told you to pull over and wait in their custody until the police arrived? Would you respond in a passive or aggressive manner? No one is going to believe you if you say that you would calmly submit to an armed stranger who is trying to detain you.
When you plant ice you're going to harvest wind. - Robert Hunter
JSG wrote: From the witness statements I think Zimmerman confronted Martin, words were exchanged and Martin kicked his *ss, even though he was smaller. It's still not justification for shooting an unarmed person. From the reports of how often Zimmerman called 911 to complain about stuff in the neighborhood, he comes across to me as a real neighborhood whimp with a gun.
Trayvon engaged in another known gang activity:
IIRC, if you are getting your ass kicked by a unarmed person, you can use lethal force, especially if your attacker looks like he is capable of killing you. They had a case like this in Aurora where one man ass beating on another for giving him a door ding. The door dinger shot and mortally wounded the attacker and eventually declared innocent.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
JSG wrote: What we don't know is did the boy start beating Zimmerman when he pulled a gun on him. Was he fighting for his life and kicking the guy's ass?
Ah, My "I"'s come out IIRC to the lack of serif kinda make it look like something else. The only way I can do that same thing is by using two small letter "L"ls so it looks like llRC and I couldn't figure out what the "L"'s stood for.
Edited to add: Weird, the edit box shows the I's with a serif but the finished product comes out with out them.
This is what it looks like when I type it in the edit box:
So Zimmerman wasn't on a Neighborhood Watch at all and had no reason to follow Martin what so ever. He didn't observe him breaking into anything. He didn't observe him stealing anything. He didn't observe him harming anyone. All he did was see that a black man wearing a hoodie was walking down the street.
"He was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the
Sanford Police Department."
Yet Zimmerman did stalk Martin and even escalated the confrontation by leaving his vehicle and pursuing Martin even when he was told not to by the authorities. Zimmerman had called 911 and police dispatch so many times that it shows that his thirst to play vigilante was so high that this was bound to happen at some point.
And Zimmerman lied to police, which undermines anything he says about the incident.
"Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has
a prior arrest history?
In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to
him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We
are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this
event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information."
All this points to the Sanford, FL police department as an inept law enforcement division. THAT'S why so many people are questioning this situation and not believing what they are being told. Now, Zimmerman has a lawyer that is going on TV alternately claiming they are either his attorney or his legal advisor and saying that they don't know anything except that Zimmerman had injuries and Zimmerman's friends popping up on TV saying that he's crying all the time and a good guy. THAT'S why there's an outcry of shock and disbelief over the whole thing. There is no proof of any crime on Martin's part that could have goaded Zimmerman to play vigilante and instigate and escalate the situation until the kid in the hoodie was dead because he dared to not follow the orders of an armed stranger.
When you plant ice you're going to harvest wind. - Robert Hunter
