Geithner: Economy not doing fine

Has it seemed that Democracy4You's understanding of economics is getting further from the truth than even Obama's?

Many of those 'robber barons' also insured their workers were kept in perpetual poverty with company towns, company stores, and company currency. If the workers tried to better their lot the 'robber barons' hired thugs to keep them in line and killed many of them. Then there's the child labor sweatshops. And how about the railroads built on the bodies of many workers?

A free market based upon mutual respect of labor and employer is fine. But sooner or later either side can get greedy (yes, the unions became as bad as the companies IMO) and self-regulation seems to not be an option.

cydl wrote: Many of those 'robber barons' also insured their workers were kept in perpetual poverty with company towns, company stores, and company currency. If the workers tried to better their lot the 'robber barons' hired thugs to keep them in line and killed many of them. Then there's the child labor sweatshops. And how about the railroads built on the bodies of many workers?

A free market based upon mutual respect of labor and employer is fine. But sooner or later either side can get greedy (yes, the unions became as bad as the companies IMO) and self-regulation seems to not be an option.

I think you are focusing on micro details and I'm looking at the big picture- the overall affect of the 19th century was the emergence of the USA as a world class economic power. Were there abuses and hard conditions- of course there were. Those sweatshops and railroads used the standard of labor and business practices of their day- and due to the massive improvement of economic conditions, many of those details are no longer an issue at all. Some still are.

Company towns, company stores, and company currency still exist for example in the coal industry back east- while here in the west no such system exists. You can still be a poor coal miner in Appalachia, but in Wyoming the average coal miner makes more than 80K/year- with state of the art safety & working conditions.

I dont want to focus on the minutiae, but the overall impact for the vast majority of Americans who experienced better lives as a result of a higher standard of living that the 19th century brought to our country.

By the way- ask that 13 year old factory worker in China about working conditions, pay levels and safety. But overall - 100's of millions of people are for the first time in history, working their way out of abject poverty and up into the middle class.

You could say those factory owners- companies like Apple, Sony, Panasonic, Chevy, Bmw and Nike are the "robber barons" of today- but they are enabling a country like China to become a world class economic powerhouse.....

For the first time in modern history.

Well, maybe I am focusing on micro details. And certainly judging 19th constructs through 21st century eyes is a bit myopic.

I guess I'm basically not optimistic about the ability of many companies to curb their most base instincts like greed and exploitation - I've worked for too many that weren't able to do that. I'd like to believe there's a happy medium where these type of things are even less prevalent than they have been (and are now). I suppose that's a little too utopian on my part.

cydl wrote: Well, maybe I am focusing on micro details. And certainly judging 19th constructs through 21st century eyes is a bit myopic.

I guess I'm basically not optimistic about the ability of many companies to curb their most base instincts like greed and exploitation - I've worked for too many that weren't able to do that. I'd like to believe there's a happy medium where these type of things are even less prevalent than they have been (and are now). I suppose that's a little too utopian on my part.

Very few of us want to go back to those days, but moving the balance of the scale to help businesses make it easier for them to compete against the Chinese I don't think will hurt worker's too much.

At least Bear is honest......he represents that part of our country that sees business as supreme, and the citizens as there to promote business. When a child, forced to work long hours in unsafe conditions, is a micro detail, we have indeed lost our humanity. Perhaps it's time to change the focus of this nation as a country of the corporation, by the corporation, and for the corporation. Oops, my bad...."Corporations are people my friend". I hope I never see the day when what is valued in this country is not it's people, but corporations and how much money they can make.

archer wrote: we have indeed lost our humanity..... I hope I never see the day when what is valued in this country is not it's people, but corporations and how much money they can make.

We're already there....

archer wrote: At least Bear is honest......he represents that part of our country that sees business as supreme, and the citizens as there to promote business. ....I hope I never see the day when what is valued in this country is not it's people, but corporations and how much money they can make.

Look- if you want to bum around your whole life and never make anything of yourself, that's fine with me- just don't ask me to pay for your laziness!

Those corporations are owned by people- people like you and me who have retirement accounts, 401K's, or just some extra money to invest. Business is not supreme- people are supreme. How much money a corporation makes = how much money the investors make, and more and more those investors are working joe's and working Jane's- and little old ladies with blue hair who live next door to you archer- unless you are the little old lady with blue hair.

If you are, then YOU are the modern day "robber baron"- please introduce yourself to yourself!

FredHayek wrote: Very few of us want to go back to those days, but moving the balance of the scale to help businesses make it easier for them to compete against the Chinese I don't think will hurt worker's too much.

Agreed. It hits a little close to home for me. My father was a master brass molder. I went to the foundry in which he worked once when I was very small. It looked to me like something out of Dante's inferno. Dark and fire and huge piles of black sand everywhere. Every night he came home and coughed up blood. Every time he went to the doctor (company doctor) he was given a clean bill of health. That happend every day until the day he died of silicosis.

BearMtnHIB wrote:

archer wrote: At least Bear is honest......he represents that part of our country that sees business as supreme, and the citizens as there to promote business. ....I hope I never see the day when what is valued in this country is not it's people, but corporations and how much money they can make.

Look- if you want to bum around your whole life and never make anything of yourself, that's fine with me- just don't ask me to pay for your laziness!

Those corporations are owned by people- people like you and me who have retirement accounts, 401K's, or just some extra money to invest. Business is not supreme- people are supreme. How much money a corporation makes = how much money the investors make, and more and more those investors are working joe's and working Jane's- and little old ladies with blue hair who live next door to you archer- unless you are the little old lady with blue hair.

If you are, then YOU are the modern day "robber baron"- please introduce yourself to yourself!

I'm that little old lady....but the hair is brown, thank you very much....and yes, I have done OK in this world, and so have those corporations I invest in, and I have worked for, and the one I started myself......and what do ya know, we did that all with regulations in place, with laws that protect workers, and even unions.......what a concept. Corporations can make money and still treat employees with respect.