Anthropogenic Global Warming

05 Feb 2013 22:27 #1 by Blazer Bob
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2 ... er+Line%29


"Though you wouldn’t know it from the antagonistic nature of public discussions about global warming, a large measure of scientific agreement and shared interpretation exists amongst nearly all scientists who consider the issue. The common ground, much of which was traversed by Dr. Hayhoe in her article, includes:

* that climate has always changed and always will,
* that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas and warms the lower atmosphere,
* that human emissions are accumulating in the atmosphere,
* that a global warming of around 0.5OC occurred in the 20th century, but
* that global warming has ceased over the last 15 years.".......................

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06 Feb 2013 05:55 #2 by FredHayek
And that the media likes to cherrypick data? The warmest year in the contiguous US this year.

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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06 Feb 2013 08:54 #3 by Rick
Replied by Rick on topic Anthropogenic Global Warming
Come on guys, Global Warming is so 1990s, it's CLIMATE CHANGE! Get with the program.
Terrorism = manmade disaster = workplace violence
Torture = death by drone
War on terror = Overseas Contingency Operation
Freedom of Religion = Freedom of worship
Illegal Immigrants = Undocumented Workers
Tax increases = Revenue Increases

Back on topic, I think this says it all:

The phrase ‘Occam’s Razor’ is now generally used as shorthand to represent the fundamental scientific assumption of simplicity. To explain any given set of observations of the natural world, scientific method proceeds by erecting, first, the simplest possible explanation (hypothesis) that can explain the known facts. This simple explanation, termed the null hypothesis, then becomes the assumed interpretation until additional facts emerge that require modification of the initial hypothesis, or perhaps even invalidate it altogether.


Just like so many scientific theories, they change over time (kinda like the climate). But we're too willing to bankrupt the country and squeeze the middle class on a theory that hasn't exactly played out as predicted.

The left is angry because they are now being judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.

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06 Feb 2013 10:36 #4 by chickaree
Not all conservatives outright reject the possibility of human affect on climate. It isa shame that something so basic has become partisan. Science must always remain impartial.

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06 Feb 2013 10:51 #5 by FredHayek

chickaree wrote: Science must always remain impartial.

Idealist.

I think most of the global warming is man-made but I don't see how we can solve it. The US has already done a lot to lower our footprint lately, switching from coal to natural gas has reduced emissions, more energy efficient appliances has helped a lot. Fracking is also contributing...but I don't see how we are going to force other nations to play along.

Due to smog concerns, China and India are finally looking at replacing coal power generation with cleaner alternatives, but this is going to take decades to implement, and will be more because of concerns about human health than silly first world problems like global warming.
They just have better things to do with their limited funds than worry about temps going up a degree.

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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06 Feb 2013 15:13 - 06 Feb 2013 17:36 #6 by pineinthegrass

Blazer Bob wrote: www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/02/o...eed+%28Power+Line%29


"Though you wouldn’t know it from the antagonistic nature of public discussions about global warming, a large measure of scientific agreement and shared interpretation exists amongst nearly all scientists who consider the issue. The common ground, much of which was traversed by Dr. Hayhoe in her article, includes:

* that climate has always changed and always will,
* that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas and warms the lower atmosphere,
* that human emissions are accumulating in the atmosphere,
* that a global warming of around 0.5OC occurred in the 20th century, but
* that global warming has ceased over the last 15 years.".......................


That article starts out trying to sound resonable, and those first four points of agreement between both sides of the issue make sense to me. But I see no support for the the fifth one, "global warming has ceased over the last 15 years".

He talks about "common ground" in Dr. Hoyhoe's article, but I looked at the article and I see zero (added "zero" to correct a typo) agreement of no warming over 15 years. And I think you'd be very hard pressed to find any such agreement on that point between both sides.

http://www.aitse.org/climate-change-anthropogenic-or-not/

The claim of no warming over 15 (or 16) years comes from the fact that 1998 was a record hot year by a large amount because a major El Nino happened that year. So if you compare the following years to a record high year specifically chosen as your starting point, you won't see much (although there were warmer years after 1998). So there is a reason why they keep comparing to 1998. It's very misleading.

Here is a pretty good explanation of it...

[youtube:wvwg6qtm]
[/youtube:wvwg6qtm]

So once the article began with that claim, it seemed clear to me the author has an agenda. And his fourth point of agreement may not be accurate either, but I'd have to look further into it.

I do agree there is way too much politics in the discussion from both sides. And too many half truths from both sides as well.

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06 Feb 2013 15:38 #7 by Blazer Bob

pineinthegrass wrote:

Blazer Bob wrote: www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/02/o...eed+%28Power+Line%29


"Though you wouldn’t know it from the antagonistic nature of public discussions about global warming, a large measure of scientific agreement and shared interpretation exists amongst nearly all scientists who consider the issue. The common ground, much of which was traversed by Dr. Hayhoe in her article, includes:

* that climate has always changed and always will,
* that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas and warms the lower atmosphere,
* that human emissions are accumulating in the atmosphere,
* that a global warming of around 0.5OC occurred in the 20th century, but
* that global warming has ceased over the last 15 years.".......................


That article starts out trying to sound resonable, and those first four points of agreement between both sides of the issue make sense to me. But I see no support for the the fifth one, "global warming has ceased over the last 15 years"................

.


Most start out with a POV. Makes life damn difficult. I think his piece that I only skimmed and won't pretend to be able to absorb stated that up front. It seems to me he raised those point in order to dismiss them.

"
"Yet at the end of her article Dr. Hayhoe recommends for further reading the websites RealClimate.org and SkepticalScience.com, whereas here at the outset of writing my own article I recommend the websites wattsupwiththat.com and [url=http://www.thegwpf.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;]www.thegwpf.org[/url] (Global Warming Policy Foundation). To knowledgeable readers, this immediately signals that Dr. Hayhoe and I have diametrically opposing views on the global warming issue.

The general public finds it very hard to understand how such strong disagreement can exist between two equally qualified persons on a scientific topic, a disagreement that is manifest also on the wider scene by the existence of equivalent groups of scientists who either support or oppose the views of the IPCC about dangerous anthropogenic (human-caused) global warming (DAGW)."







"that climate has always changed and always will,
•that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas and warms the lower atmosphere,
•that human emissions are accumulating in the atmosphere,
•that a global warming of around 0.5OC occurred in the 20th century, but
•that global warming has ceased over the last 15 years.

The scientific argument over DAGW is therefore about none of these things. Rather, it is almost entirely about three other, albeit related, issues. They are:
•the amount of net warming that is, or will be, produced by human-related emissions,
•whether any actual evidence exists for dangerous warming of human causation over the last 50 years, and
•whether the IPCC’s computer models can provide accurate climate predictions 100 years into the future.".....................

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06 Feb 2013 17:01 #8 by ScienceChic
I too had trouble with the article as soon as they made the claim that there's been no warming the past 16 years. Ummm, yes there has.

[quoteem:cu9z6ky7]The general public finds it very hard to understand how such strong disagreement can exist between two equally qualified persons on a scientific topic, a disagreement that is manifest also on the wider scene by the existence of equivalent groups of scientists who either support or oppose the views of the IPCC about dangerous anthropogenic (human-caused) global warming (DAGW)."[/quoteem:cu9z6ky7]You say toh-may-toh, I say toh-mah-toh. There is no "strong disagreement" that I can see anywhere among "equivalent" groups of scientists about dangerous AGW - I see a lot of smoke and mirrors from the opposition trying to puff up the credentials of the people they trot out as "experts". For example, while I agree with the mission of the institute of the author of the OP, I find it completely damning that they have several "scientists" who are listed on their staff as "Anonymous". If they really stood behind their work, they wouldn't hide like that.

[quoteem:cu9z6ky7]The scientific argument over DAGW is therefore about none of these things. Rather, it is almost entirely about three other, albeit related, issues. They are:
•the amount of net warming that is, or will be, produced by human-related emissions,
•whether any actual evidence exists for dangerous warming of human causation over the last 50 years, and
•whether the IPCC’s computer models can provide accurate climate predictions 100 years into the future.".....................[/quoteem:cu9z6ky7]Anyone who makes these three statements doesn't understand the data, the physics, or how the climate models work.
If you look at the projections, you see shaded wider margins around the lines - that indicates the degree of uncertainty/confidence level in the model's projections. No they aren't going to be "accurate" 100 years out, nor have they attempted to claim to do so - they have put a range of outcomes based on the various paths society can take: no attempts to reduce emissions, moderate attempts to do so, and strong attempts to do so, and the shaded parts are what they can't account for in terms of system feedback. It's meant to provide a guideline and so far, the models have hit the mark with the warming seen today that was projected a decade or more ago.

File Attachment:

From http://www.globalchange.gov/HighResImag ... 25_top.jpg

What isn't in doubt, and is not disputed by this group either, (which boggles my mind that they'd continue to argue) is that emissions are increasing, and GHGs absolutely cause warming. Occam's Razor doesn't get any simpler than that - we continue to use fossil fuels, clear-cut the land, and do other things to cause greenhouse gases to rise, then there's no denying that it will get warmer (and at the rate that we are using fossil fuels today, we are on track for the higher projections). Warmer means more extreme weather, more droughts, stronger storms, rising sea levels, coral reefs being destroyed, ocean ecosystems getting disrupted, food chains collapsing, diseases moving into new territories and increasing in frequency, and populations undergoing massive social upheaval over fighting for scarcer resources, food, and land. The only question is when.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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