Progressive tenets of Jesus Christ

Talk among yourselves. I have the popcorn ready.

Reverend Revelant wrote: Talk among yourselves. I have the popcorn ready.

Inviting you to join in........

Just so all of those following along get the backstory . . .

PrintSmith wrote:

ZHawke wrote:

PrintSmith wrote: As the main "offender" in that regard, let me say that I see nothing at all positive about the "progressive" movement. Their objectives, their beliefs, are almost universally in diametric opposition to individual liberty, self determination and limited government. From its very beginnings straight into today "progressives" seek an activist government, subjugation of the individual to the collective, approve of a growing welfare state and believe that the Constitution is outmoded and should be interpreted according to contemporary society, that its meaning "evolves" and is dynamic with the times.

And while that may indeed be a "narrow description of beliefs and/or values", it is also a description of the core values inherent in the "progressive" movement from its beginnings in Theodore Roosevelt's time straight through to today. And I see not a single positive thing in those core values, not a single thing.

P, I mean what I'm about to say/ask with all due respect. I grew up in a very conservative community. The church I belonged to while growing up embodied that conservatism to the nth degree. I questioned my elders. I questioned my Pastor. I questioned my parents. I questioned my aunts and uncles. My older brother did the same. All of those listed told us to just have faith. We were both chastised and pretty much told we were going to Hell for even daring to question faith at its most basic level. No definitive answers to the questions we asked - just "have faith" and, if you don't, you're going to Hell.

As time went on, I came to my own realization that Jesus Christ, to me at least, is the embodiment of virtually everything you appear to find so offensive about progressives with the exception of your posit that progressives seek an activist government (I think it's safe to say Jesus was not even close to being anything remotely resembling a supporter of activist government).

So, my question to you (again, with all due respect) is how do you reconcile the tenets of Jesus Christ vs your conservative views of some of the things those of a more "progressive" bent try to do?

We can get into that Z, but you are now delving into beliefs with that request. As long as you realize that, I'm good with it. Do you still want to go there? Before you answer, know that I had two great-uncles who were Monsignors. One of them started the Register newspapers, as in "The Denver Catholic Register". The misrepresentations of Christ and His teachings are something I'm well versed in.

I'll start with this one. Christ never once advocated subjugating the individual to the collective. He certainly preached that one should subjugate themselves in service to others, but He never, even once, advocated subjugating others for the good of the collective.

The floor is yours Z . . .

Tomorrow.

ZHawke wrote: Tomorrow.

What is wrong? :

OK, I'll give you some more fat to chew on in the meantime. The other thing Christ never, even once, preached is forcibly taking money from others to provide for the poor, which goes to my earlier statement about a growing welfare state.

Sweet dreams Z . . .

Blondie wrote:

ZHawke wrote: Tomorrow.

What is wrong? :

Nothing is wrong, Blondie. By the time I got my tongue unstuck from that damn pole, it was really late and I just wanted to go to bed. Not so sure about today, either cuz my tongue is really, really sore right now.

PrintSmith wrote: I'll start with this one. Christ never once advocated subjugating the individual to the collective. He certainly preached that one should subjugate themselves in service to others, but He never, even once, advocated subjugating others for the good of the collective.

The "belief" thing is why I suggested this topic might have its own thread, P. So, yeah, I understand, and am open to your beliefs just so long as you also understand I don't intend this to be an "us v them" type of discussion.

By way of explanation before we begin, I use the Internet as my favorite "library". As such, I find it affords me the opportunity to explore many different views on many different subjects while never having to leave the comfort of my own home to do so. I'm also a voracious reader (as I know you are). I just do it more from a digital aspect in my old age than I've ever done previously. That being said, I also understand there are multiple sources on the Internet that cannot be trusted for veracity:

So, keeping this mantra in mind, I try very hard to look only at those sites that are "credible". Of course, even physical libraries have "sources" one might consider to be suspect. Because this discussion is based more on "beliefs" than "facts", my research took me far and wide. What I found was a wide range of thoughts and opinions on the subject of Christ and "collectivism". It would appear, from what I found, that you are correct in saying Christ did not advocate for collectivism literally.

However, while I accept your assertion Jesus Christ never once advocated subjugating the individual to the "collective" from a perspective he never directly used the word "collective", there are some who believe "collectivism" was an integral part of Christianity up until just a few hundred years ago.

Here's one of those links I'm going to rely on to try to help make the point:

prodigalthought.net/2013/05/04/misreadin...ualism-collectivism/

In this article, the author talks about use of the word "you" in the context of the age in which it was being used.

In this article (another link), the author goes into a little bit of detail on how individualism and collectivism can be beneficial:

www.iiccworldview.org/individualism-and-...some-misconceptions/

I found both articles helpful from my own perspective in providing "insights" I hadn't really thought about until you posted what you did. Those are the kinds of posts that send me digging - not to prove you wrong, but, rather, to help me understand a little better where you might be coming from. I hope you find the same to be true of me when I share what I do in this thread.

Pope Francis, a Jesuit, is bringing this to a head. This week he talked about the Vatican using more of their savings for the poor and he has complained about economic inequality more often.

FredHayek wrote: Pope Francis, a Jesuit, is bringing this to a head. This week he talked about the Vatican using more of their savings for the poor and he has complained about economic inequality more often.

Which will be very interesting now, Fred. How will the Vatican appropriate the recently found "millions that were tucked away"?

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30339699