Individualism or Collectivism?

What do you think; is American society moving in one particular direction... toward individualism or collectivism? Or maybe you think it's relatively static when it comes to American citizens being more or less dependent on each other on the macro level. I know this is off the wall, but I had a drunken discussion with some friends last night and somehow this subject came up. If "we" are moving in a particular direction, what is the worse and/or the best case scenario(s) for the long game?

Oh yeah, and Happy New Year!


Now back to my food network and getting-to-know-my-new-cooking-appliance... marathon. (and irresponsible face stuffing)

Funny how a little social grease can bust loose a simple question about a complex issue...

As you might expect, I'm a grumpy old white man with all manner of preconceived notions about what the younger generations want and why our country is the way it is these days. My knee jerk reaction is to say that the population of our nation and the rest of the world are more than happy to have their Gubments "take care of them" perhaps because they can't take care of themselves or more likely because they're just too dammed lazy to step up and take charge of their own lives.

Then every once in a while a young confederate, a real entrepreneur slips through the lines of my theory and proves me wrong. Could it be that the independents just don't get enough press? Young successful people don't seem to be in the news much, they're not bleeding, starving, or accusing some group of discriminating against them. Tried a new tactic and it didn't get you the expected result? Who's to blame? It might just be that the fault lies with the individual and runs no further. No, the successful folks seem to just make their way, pay their bills, and fight the battles that are germane to their issues.

So you didn't succeed the first, fourth, or fiftieth time? Why not just lay down and give up, the Gubment has your back - let them pay the bills and enjoy your slice of what the Gubment says you deserve... Or get off your dead ass and try again until you get it right, heck you might even have to adjust your approach and your expectations but at least you can say you didn't quit.

There's a soapbox emoticon out there somewhere, pretend I posted it and me stepping off of it. I now return you to your normally scheduled program...

otisptoadwater wrote: Then every once in a while a young confederate, a real entrepreneur slips through the lines of my theory and proves me wrong. Could it be that the independents just don't get enough press? Young successful people don't seem to be in the news much, they're not bleeding, starving, or accusing some group of discriminating against them. Tried a new tactic and it didn't get you the expected result? Who's to blame? It might just be that the fault lies with the individual and runs no further. No, the successful folks seem to just make their way, pay their bills, and fight the battles that are germane to their issues.

So you didn't succeed the first, fourth, or fiftieth time? Why not just lay down and give up, the Gubment has your back - let them pay the bills and enjoy your slice of what the Gubment says you deserve...

Hope springs eternal.

My husband and I often have the same discussion over a couple of adult beverages. <G> I tend to be more optimistic than him on most everything except this subject. I'm very pessimistic regarding the long-term chances of our individualism and Republic surviving the encroaching collectivism. Yet I do see little corners of good news.

As Otis said, I think you only hear about the bad stuff - you don't hear about the folks out there who are taking responsibility for themselves and making a go of it on their own. I think the downside is that that is becoming increasingly difficult with regulations that seem to be tailor-made to stifle any sort of individual initiative and accomplishment. The folks in Wyoming who wanted to create a duck pond on their private property and the EPA swept in leaps to mind. I also see a lot of good signs in that more individuals (but not nearly enough) are starting to see the deterioration and are at least starting to get concerned.

So long-term IMO:

Worst case scenario: Apathy will win the day. The Republic will fall and we'll become yet another tin-pot collectivist dictatorship. Eventually the pockets of resistance to that will be eliminated. Pretty much the Roman Empire all over again. Fundamentally, if you don't remember history you're doomed to repeat it.

Best case scenario: The good folks of this country will shake off their apathetic torpor and start getting involved in helping to move us back on track.

I think that there are plenty of folks who feel the country going in the wrong direction but so long as a)they don't feel that they as an individual can make a difference and b)they're still what I call 'fat, dumb and happy' (e.g. able to buy what they want at the stores and are not personally affected by any repressive regulations), they won't do anything. I don't know the answer to waking those folks up.

And yes!

Thanks for playing along with this one (sorry Bob, but the video doesn't work).

I can see an argument for both sides, mainly because of technology, internet, and social media vs government. I see government as the force trying to hold us together in a collective soup while individuals have more and more tools to help keep themselves independent.

I guess it really depends on how you define the two terms. Are we more independent because we can find and communicate with people at the touch of a few keys without having face to face contact or does this fact make people feel more connected and dependent on each other?

I started my business back in 1990 and it took quite a bit of face to face contacts and 'how to' brain picking. I'm working on starting another business now and already know the formula, but if I was a new entrepreneur, I could avoid much of the face to face and even start a client base without ever leaving my home. When I was looking for the woman of my dreams at around that same time, I was also required to mingle and network face to face... today I could find a mate in another country from my living room.

Then there is the government that seems to be wanting more and more of our information, our income, and I believe, our independence from it... all for some sort of greater good. I'm not against a 'greater good', as long as I agree to what the government thinks is 'good'. Whatever party has the most power decides what is good and what is bad for us as a collective population which often goes against our desires for individualism and self reliance. Now that said, there is a certain percentage of people who take comfort in government structure, rule making, and control... they are more likely to accept a path instead of making their own.

So since we can probably agree that government trends towards centralized control of freedoms and resources, where is the population trending? Even with all the technology that allows us to do more on our own, is it enough to create more path-makers or is the majority trending toward path-takers because it's a safer bet?

BlazerBob wrote:

otisptoadwater wrote: Then every once in a while a young confederate, a real entrepreneur slips through the lines of my theory and proves me wrong. Could it be that the independents just don't get enough press? Young successful people don't seem to be in the news much, they're not bleeding, starving, or accusing some group of discriminating against them. Tried a new tactic and it didn't get you the expected result? Who's to blame? It might just be that the fault lies with the individual and runs no further. No, the successful folks seem to just make their way, pay their bills, and fight the battles that are germane to their issues.

So you didn't succeed the first, fourth, or fiftieth time? Why not just lay down and give up, the Gubment has your back - let them pay the bills and enjoy your slice of what the Gubment says you deserve...

Hope springs eternal.
The ant song.

Altho I am pessimistic about "the collective".... It has been EXTREMELY encouraging to watch
"SHARK TANK"...people who have elevated their lives by hard work AND a good business plan,then
turned to venture capitalism to enlarge THEIR influence AND help others do the same....GOOD PROGRAM on CNBC

My simplistic view:

Progressives are pushing us towards collectivism. Conservatives are claiming to be individualistic, but in reality are just pushing for a corporate collectivism.

The only people that are pushing towards individualism are the ones that want less power at the national level (both corporate and government) and more power at the local level - where an individual can truly make a difference.

Nobody that matters wrote: My simplistic view:

Progressives are pushing us towards collectivism. Conservatives are claiming to be individualistic, but in reality are just pushing for a corporate collectivism.

The only people that are pushing towards individualism are the ones that want less power at the national level (both corporate and government) and more power at the local level - where an individual can truly make a difference.

A very astute observation - I completely agree. I just hope that there are enough of those folks to truly make a difference.

cydl wrote:

Nobody that matters wrote: My simplistic view:

Progressives are pushing us towards collectivism. Conservatives are claiming to be individualistic, but in reality are just pushing for a corporate collectivism.

The only people that are pushing towards individualism are the ones that want less power at the national level (both corporate and government) and more power at the local level - where an individual can truly make a difference.

A very astute observation - I completely agree. I just hope that there are enough of those folks to truly make a difference.

I agree as well, if Jeb is the best the Republicans have to offer (polling so far), I don't see enough daylight between him and Shrillary to even matter. What we have was never intended by the founders imo, we were not supposed to be ruled by lifers in Washington... they were supposed to serve then go back to work with the rest of us once they SERVED. The people in Congress are incentivized to stay as long as possible because of the pay and perks they've given to themselves and no scrutiny from our worthless media. We may not have a dictator yet, but Washington as a whole is growing itself into something similar, ever so slowly so the masses buried in their FB accounts don't notice.