The hardest thing I’ll ever ask you to do...

22 Dec 2019 17:17 #11 by koobookie

towermonkey wrote: Except there are no crimes stated in the articles.


I am confused. Are you claiming that Abuse of Power and Obstruction of Congress are not ..a crimes?

www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/12/politics...-articles-annotated/

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22 Dec 2019 17:48 #12 by Pony Soldier
No, they are not crimes, they are bumper stickers made for a campaign. Can you point to a statue or law that was actually broken? There are certainly none cited in the actual articles of impeachment. (I won't click on CNN links. They have reported so much false that I refuse to even give them a click)

Abuse of power... that is referring to Trump withholding money (that wasn't withheld) in exchange for a for a favor that was never delivered. It is nothing but an imagined crime of intent and they are projecting the intent. It isn't something that is even provable.

Obstruction of Congress... this one is just stupid. The impeachment proceedings weren't set up to be fair and Trump pushed back in the only way open to him. He had no right to counsel being present, no right to call witnesses. If the democrats had set up fair procedures, he might have played along. The right thing to do would have been to let the case go to court. It would have been expedited and witnesses would have been compelled to testify. The democrats in Congress had no appetite for the right thing, only pitchforks and torches.

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22 Dec 2019 18:24 #13 by FredHayek
"Abuse of Power" is pretty darn vague and I think most Cold War presidents would be guilty of it. The House looked the other way when we went off to war time and time again. Or is it like illegal immigration, sometimes you don't have to follow laws you don't want to?

Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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23 Dec 2019 08:24 - 23 Dec 2019 13:30 #14 by koobookie
I don't think I will ever understand the depths to which people will travel to obfuscate a situation.

Mormon Women for Ethical Government, released a statement on Wednesday. This is a salient point from that:

Any president or leader who forces political support and fails to honor and protect the free and legitimate elections on which our republic rests has lost the moral right to govern. By attempting to compel Ukraine to announce investigations benefitting only his re-election efforts, President Trump forced every American taxpayer to become an unwitting contributor to his political campaign and a supporter of his re-election.


But I suppose that many conservatives **** are okay with Trump engaging in those activities. Seriously, why are conservatives fighting to keep this obviously corrupt and immoral man in office? You should all be demonstrating against him, because if he is thrown out, you get Pence!

www.mormonwomenforethicalgovernment.org/...se-impeachment-vote/
The following user(s) said Thank You: Blazer Bob

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23 Dec 2019 10:48 #15 by Pony Soldier
In an effort to comply with the initial post, I won’t post unending links to articles that support my opinion. The point I’m trying to make is that nobody can know what Trump was thinking when he asked for investigation announcements. (They never happened BTW). It used to be, in this country, that we mocked totalitarian governments who convicted people for thought crimes. Now we are one of those countries. I hope you’re all proud.

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23 Dec 2019 12:47 #16 by FredHayek
You appear to be a little myopic. You think Trump should go down for this crime but probably ignored when President Obama tried to influence the elections of Israel. Or the Kennedy administration overthrowing the government of Vietnam. Think those are bigger crimes than asking about some corruption? Biden was one of twenty candidates then. Should all of those candidates not be investigated for possible overseas dealings that smell fishy? Just because they are running?

koobookie wrote: I don't think I will ever understand the depths to which people will travel to obfuscate a situation.

Mormon Women for Ethical Government, released a statement on Wednesday. This is a salient point from that:

Any president or leader who forces political support and fails to honor and protect the free and legitimate elections on which our republic rests has lost the moral right to govern. By attempting to compel Ukraine to announce investigations benefitting only his re-election efforts, President Trump forced every American taxpayer to become an unwitting contributor to his political campaign and a supporter of his re-election.


But I suppose that many conservatives here are okay with Trump engaging in those activities. Seriously, why are conservatives fighting to keep this obviously corrupt and immoral man in office? You should all be demonstrating against him, because if he is thrown out, you get Pence!

www.mormonwomenforethicalgovernment.org/...se-impeachment-vote/


Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.

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23 Dec 2019 13:07 #17 by koobookie
What's the difference between a President interfering in another countries elections, and a President asking a country to interfere in our elections?

The first situation is using the power of the office to benefit of the country (arguably).
The second situation is using the power of the office to benefit an individual that is in office.

See the difference?

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23 Dec 2019 14:43 #18 by Pony Soldier
Wait, who asked who to interfere in our elections? I’ve heard this talking point over and over but asking for a country that has admitted to interfering in previous elections (2016 on behalf of Clinton) to announce investigations is asking them to interfere in elections....how?

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23 Dec 2019 15:12 #19 by koobookie

towermonkey wrote: Wait, who asked who to interfere in our elections? I’ve heard this talking point over and over but asking for a country that has admitted to interfering in previous elections (2016 on behalf of Clinton) to announce investigations is asking them to interfere in elections....how?


I'm sure you've read the Articles of Impeachment, listened to and read the multiple witnesses from the House Investigation, and read news reports that explain this. Do you need links to show you the evidence that has been presented?

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24 Dec 2019 14:31 #20 by ScienceChic

Rick wrote: In your own words, using ONLY facts, please describe to me what President Trump did to deserve being thrown out of office and do you think Trumps words and actions would be seen as impeachable by the founders. Of course this last part is just your opinion and is exempt from the facts only criteria.

Hope you’re all having a fantastic weekend! I’m sick in bed

Edit to add, please don’t post any articles or links that backup your facts, let’s pretend like we are sitting around a campfire with no internet. We can fact check later if necessary.

Well, he hasn't been thrown out yet, but Christmas miracles may yet come to pass. :biggrin:

What did he do to deserve being impeached?
1. He's violating the emoluments clause
2. He's shared top secret classified information with foreign adversaries
3. He's apologized for a foreign dictator who had a journalist brutally murdered for daring to criticize his government and justified supporting said dictator because of an arms deal that'll make billions
4. He's attacked citizens of the United States publicly for expressing their 1st Amendment rights and called for their firing from their jobs
5. He had an affair, paid off the woman with campaign funds through a proxy, and then lied about it.
6. He insists on using un-encrypted devices in public venues which every foreign intelligence agency in the world can intercept.
7. He's publicly asked our enemies for help getting him (re-)elected.
8. He's enacted policies causing the Unites States to now be committing human rights abuses.
9. He's betrayed our allies in the war against terrorists.
10. His [acting] Cabinet is not fulfilling their duties in enacting the 25th Amendment as he's clearly suffering major cognitive decline.

Do I think our Founding Fathers would consider his actions impeachable?
Hell yes. Have you read The Federalist Papers #65, 66, and 69 by Alexander Hamilton?

Sorry you weren't feeling well, I hope your cold has improved and you can enjoy a wonderful holiday with your family.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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