Number of illegal immigrants per state.

Here is a chart showing the number of illegal immigrants per state. It only shows about 7 million when there are closer to 12 million. So Mass has about 87,000. That is a lot of jobs Americans can pick up in that state now that they passed this law. Colorado has about 144,000. Do you know any people who can't find work who would love one of those jobs just so they could eat?

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_es ... immigrants

Now click on the per capita at the top and Colorado has 3 illegal immigrants living here our of every 100 people. So if you go downtown and see 1000 people in a few blocks, you probably looked at 30 people here illegally with no papers who we have no way of tacking and if they commited a crime, they can just disappear into the cracks. Not to mention there are probably 30 people standing in the unemployment line and collecting food stams because of them.

The only flaw I find in your logic is equating the number of illegals to the number of jobs available....we have no idea how many of those illegals are employed, some are probably children, spouses without jobs, and unemployed or under employed. One of the problems with the illegal immigrant issue has been the inability to quantify the problem with real numbers and an accurate assessment of the economic impact.

archer wrote: The only flaw I find in your logic is equating the number of illegals to the number of jobs available....we have no idea how many of those illegals are employed, some are probably children, spouses without jobs, and unemployed or under employed. One of the problems with the illegal immigrant issue has been the inability to quantify the problem with real numbers and an accurate assessment of the economic impact.

Agreed but even if there were only 10,000 of those 87,000 working, there are still 10,000 Americans in Mass. who need those jobs. They would take any job. Now on the other end, I have a friend who is a RN on Long Island and they get over 50% of the babies delievered there that come from people who have no papers and no insurance. I am sure the numbers are close in many of those states up there. So even if they are not taking jobs, they are costing tax payers a lot of money.

Because we are a supposedly "benevolent" society, we do not let people die in the streets for lack of money to pay for emergency care (well at least we try not to) but yes, both illegal immigrants and the legal poor citizens are a drain on our resources. I have no problem with providing healthcare to our less fortunate citizens (yep...I AM a liberal) but what to do about the illegals? No doctor/nurse/paramedic is going to ask for papers before treating someone, but why can't we, once the treatment is provided, then turn them over to ICE to be deported? Why has the US allowed this to become such a huge problem when they could have started decades ago to stem the flow at the border, and deal with illegals as they showed up in the system, not to mention making it financially and criminally risky for any company to hire an illegal?

Right now the states are trying the band-aid approach to this issue, and I suspect we all realize that it will not even make a dent in the problem. Sometimes the only entity well equipped enough to deal with major national issues is the federal governbment.....I can only hope that the various states will embarrass the feds into doing something on a national scale sooner rather than later.....

I think the s**t has already hit the fan on illegal immigration and the cleanup needs to start NOW.

archer wrote: Because we are a supposedly "benevolent" society, we do not let people die in the streets for lack of money to pay for emergency care (well at least we try not to) but yes, both illegal immigrants and the legal poor citizens are a drain on our resources. I have no problem with providing healthcare to our less fortunate citizens (yep...I AM a liberal) but what to do about the illegals? No doctor/nurse/paramedic is going to ask for papers before treating someone, but why can't we, once the treatment is provided, then turn them over to ICE to be deported? Why has the US allowed this to become such a huge problem when they could have started decades ago to stem the flow at the border, and deal with illegals as they showed up in the system, not to mention making it financially and criminally risky for any company to hire an illegal?

Right now the states are trying the band-aid approach to this issue, and I suspect we all realize that it will not even make a dent in the problem. Sometimes the only entity well equipped enough to deal with major national issues is the federal governbment.....I can only hope that the various states will embarrass the feds into doing something on a national scale sooner rather than later.....

I think the s**t has already hit the fan on illegal immigration and the cleanup needs to start NOW.

OK, now you are scaring me. We haven't argued once on this whole issue! :VeryScared: Gotta agree again. Make a law so after they are treated and if they are here illegally they are deported. But on the flip side of that, people are arguing that illegal immigrants will be afraid to come into the hospital when they are sick or injured and thus may die that way. You can't win with that. And I have no problem with providing healthcare to our less fortunate citizens too, but to reward people who break our laws with free healthcare and then let them walk back out to get food stamps and a job, while our taxes and costs go up to pay for it is not right.

Now we do have a little disagreement here. You said you "have no problem with providing healthcare to our less fortunate citizens (yep...I AM a liberal)". Who is paying for that healthcare bill? According to Obama, mostly the wealthy which is others. I think Conservatives are more giving. When I say that I mean more giving of their own money. Charities, Churches, shelters and helping people out financially with their own money not others. It has been shown that the red states give more to charities than the blue states do. Even the wealthy NE blue states.

Now I will agree Liberals are a lot more giving when it comes to helping all those people out with other peoples money and taxes. Obama is great with helping people as long as it isn't his money and he doesn't have to pay it back. That is why Liberals are for this healthcare bill. Because it looks like they are being the good guys wanting to take care of the less fortunate but in essence they are for it because it is sold to them by Obama and Congress and the greedy wealthy people will pay for it. So it is easy to say you are for this healthcare bill and taking care of others because you are not the one that will have to pay for it unless you are very wealthy. That is why Liberals want to tax the wealthy to give to the poor and then claim they are all for using that money to help others. It isn't their money. The Conservatives want less taxes so they can supply more jobs and give more of their own money to help others. But even the Liberals will find out they were sold a bill of goods as your healthcare costs and taxes will go up too, to pay to take care of everyone.

awww Viking.....I do think you are a little naive on this healthcare/compassion business. I agree that in an ideal world charity/local churches/shelters etc might be able to handle the care of the indigent....but our world is far from ideal. the majority of the poor seem to be concentrated in the inner cities and the poorest states where the money to fuel these charities is just not there. If the State of Colorado has a really fine program to take care of it's homeless and it's poor, has a free clinic for their healthcare, and food and aid programs....but say Arizona, or Alabama, does not because they don't have the same monitary resources or level of giving from their residents.....what do we do? Do we send money from Colorado to AZ or AL? Or do we send the residents of those states to Colorado for services? Will Coloradans want to support the out of state poor? Or will they balk at their church run charities being over-run by out-a-staters?

This is why I feel the only logical entity to provide services for the country's poor and it's children is the Federal Government....because above all, EVERY American should have access to the same services, whether they live in a red state or a blue state, a wealthy state or a poor state.....bottom line this is still one nation.

archer wrote: awww Viking.....I do think you are a little naive on this healthcare/compassion business. I agree that in an ideal world charity/local churches/shelters etc might be able to handle the care of the indigent....but our world is far from ideal. the majority of the poor seem to be concentrated in the inner cities and the poorest states where the money to fuel these charities is just not there. If the State of Colorado has a really fine program to take care of it's homeless and it's poor, has a free clinic for their healthcare, and food and aid programs....but say Arizona, or Alabama, does not because they don't have the same monitary resources or level of giving from their residents.....what do we do? Do we send money from Colorado to AZ or AL? Or do we send the residents of those states to Colorado for services? Will Coloradans want to support the out of state poor? Or will they balk at their church run charities being over-run by out-a-staters?

This is why I feel the only logical entity to provide services for the country's poor and it's children is the Federal Government....because above all, EVERY American should have access to the same services, whether they live in a red state or a blue state, a wealthy state or a poor state.....bottom line this is still one nation.

OK, two things. First off, how much better off would Arizona be if they didn't have almost 300,000 illegal immigrants to take care of with housing and food stamps and healthcare and the cost for jailing them? Also how much more revenue would the state have if all the jobs they have would go to tax paying Americans? Wouldn't that state have more money to put towards healthcare for actual Americans and all costs go down?

And second. It is very noble to want to give free food and healthcare to everyone who needs it. Now would you feel the same way if instead of raising taxes on just the wealthy, they would raise everyones taxes from top to bottom 5%? Or raise everyones healthcare costs say $100 per month, not just the wealthy top 2% or whatever it is, to cover everyone who needs it. Or is it only OK to take care of the poor if you get the money from those who make the most?

The Viking wrote: OK, two things. First off, how much better off would Arizona be if they didn't have almost 300,000 illegal immigrants to take care of with housing and food stamps and healthcare and the cost for jailing them? Also how much more revenue would the state have if all the jobs they have would go to tax paying Americans? Wouldn't that state have more money to put towards healthcare for actual Americans and all costs go down?

And second. It is very noble to want to give free food and healthcare to everyone who needs it. Now would you feel the same way if instead of raising taxes on just the wealthy, they would raise everyones taxes from top to bottom 5%? Or raise everyones healthcare costs say $100 per month, not just the wealthy top 2% or whatever it is, to cover everyone who needs it. Or is it only OK to take care of the poor if you get the money from those who make the most?

Ok, I'll try to answer....first, I was talking about legal citizens needing healthcare and assistance, not illegals. Sure Arizona would be better off without the economic drain of the illegals, my use of AZ was just an example, as was my use of Alabama. Long before the illegal problem grew, the states have been unequal in their economies. That's a fact, and blaming one states financial woes on illegals doesn't change the fact that we will have rich states and poor states with some able to take care of their own, and some not.

Taxes? I think all taxes should go up.....whew, there's a true confession for you. We have always had a graduated tax, because it just makes economic sense. think in simple terms....if you take 25% from a person who makes $15,000/year, you are pushing that person so far out of the realm of a living wage that he/she becomes the working poor. You take 25% from a person making 2 million a year, or even $200,000/year and they still are well able to live a very decent life. Thus the graduated tax. But, I do believe that we all.....from rich to not so rich need to pony up more. Right now we have the lowest effective tax rate since the 50's, yet the cost of getting by is going up. I was against the tax cuts from Bush.....I am against any tax cuts from Obama.....it is short sighted and economically unsustainable.

I have pushed for a simpler tax code, the IRS has such a complicated mess on their hands, I do wonder how much of our tax money goes just to collecting those taxes. I am perfectly willing to put my tax money where my liberal sentiments are, I want all Anmericans to live dignified and healthy lives. And no....I don't mean welfare for everyone...healthcare without cost... or handouts without paybacks. I believe that this nation is perfectly capable of giving people the help and training, and the opportunity to find meaningful work that pays a decent wage. I don't think everyone deserves to live the same way, or deserves the same perks......but I do think there is a basic level of living and healthcare that should be a right of every citizen.

So now ya know, bleeding-heart is my middle name, but I also believe that you work hard, you live responsibly and there is a payoff....you get to live better than others, you get to do more for your kids, you get to experience greater prosperity, you have learned more....those are the rewards of living good and working hard.......but the guy next door, not so smart as you, not so healthy as you, not even so lucky as you, he may miss out on the really good stuff, but I believe a home, food for the kids and basic health care should be within his reach even if it means we have to give him a little help.

archer wrote:

The Viking wrote: OK, two things. First off, how much better off would Arizona be if they didn't have almost 300,000 illegal immigrants to take care of with housing and food stamps and healthcare and the cost for jailing them? Also how much more revenue would the state have if all the jobs they have would go to tax paying Americans? Wouldn't that state have more money to put towards healthcare for actual Americans and all costs go down?

And second. It is very noble to want to give free food and healthcare to everyone who needs it. Now would you feel the same way if instead of raising taxes on just the wealthy, they would raise everyones taxes from top to bottom 5%? Or raise everyones healthcare costs say $100 per month, not just the wealthy top 2% or whatever it is, to cover everyone who needs it. Or is it only OK to take care of the poor if you get the money from those who make the most?

I do wonder how much of our tax money goes just to collecting those taxes.

I read somewhere that it is almost $4000 per tax payer. That is why you are right and we need a simpler tax code.