The First Anniversary of Climategate: A Year in Review

01 Dec 2010 16:21 #11 by daisypusher

ckm8 wrote: ..... you can't afford an open mind on this topic.....


rofllol :lol:

I assume this is true for you on other topics as well? Please tell us which topics that you do not have an open mind. Please tell us the misrepresentations you make so as to achieve the results you want. One of the criticisms of socialists/socialism is that the ends justify the means. Hence all the human tragedies that are possible with this type of government. What have you done in your close-minded attempts to assert your "progressive" agenda?

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01 Dec 2010 16:37 #12 by ScienceChic
From the great geneticist JBS Haldane:

Four stages of acceptance:
i) this is worthless nonsense;
ii) this is an interesting, but perverse, point of view;
iii) this is true, but quite unimportant;
iv) I always said so.
Journal of Genetics, vol. 58 (1963)

Or conversely, the 4 stages of denial
http://goldnews.bullionvault.com/crude_ ... _060420082
Personally, I think the majority are still in denial, but this was written back in 2008, before the person realized that it would be much worse for much longer, but hidden because the government would step in and try to make everything that was crumbling look shiny and pretty. But he's got some good points so it's worth quoting.

It's not about having an open mind or not, it's about when the evidence is so overwhelming that no one can remain ignorant and apathetic any longer, and will that time come before the carbon being loaded into the system has surpassed what we can effectively mitigate or not; ie pass the tipping points, per se.

SS109, I'd be happy if we started with just ending the subsidies to the energy/oil companies first, without adding in costs of renewable energy on top of that - it'd cut our deficit too. The biggest effect we can make starting today is to improve our conservation and energy efficiency - no new technologies required, only modification of people's behaviors, which they will be motivated to do when energy prices reflect their true price.

Residenttroll wrote: I am still waiting for scientists to prove that if we cease the production of carbons...that they will save the world and that the earth will not keep heating up at a rate of 1/10th of degree every decade.

http://www.onlyzerocarbon.org/science.html
This is a pipe dream but it highlights why it's important to begin reducing emissions as much as possible starting sooner rather than later.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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01 Dec 2010 18:50 #13 by ScienceChic
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/politi ... ge-deniers
Another Republican has harsh words for climate change deniers
The former chairman of the House Committee on Science says Republicans have lost their way.
Tue, Nov 23 2010

Another Republican is going on the record chastising members of his party for ignoring science. Former Congressman Sherwood Boehlert (R-N.Y.) recently penned a criticism of fellow members of the G.O.P. and urged the new congress to, “Have a policy debate to address facts rather than a debate featuring unsubstantiated attacks on science.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05451.html
Can the party of Reagan accept the science of climate change?
By Sherwood Boehlert
Friday, November 19, 2010
Frankly, I think he's being very kind to his fellow party members - it's less about misinformation and more about lobby influence, and Reagan certainly was NOT the champion that he thinks, but his voice matters.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/politi ... sounds-off
A Republican with nothing to lose sounds off
Bob Inglis' committee meeting lecture on climate change is exactly what the lame duck session is supposed to be about.
Fri, Nov 19 2010

With his time limited in Washington, Rep. Bob Inglis (R-S.C.) took a few shots (see video below) at his Republican counterparts during an environmental subcommittee meeting this week. The South Carolina Republican hit fellow conservatives with a one-two punch by attacking their denial of climate change and their economic hypocrisy.


http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101013/ ... 7762a.html
US midterm elections: A chilly season for climate crusaders
Published online 13 October 2010 | Nature 467, 762 (2010) | doi:10.1038/467762a

"Climate-science denial is a by-product of extreme partisanship and a kind of reactionary mode among conservatives, and I expect that this will wane," says Paul Bledsoe, a senior adviser to the Bipartisan Policy Center, a centrist think tank based in Washington DC. He says that most Republicans in the current Congress accept the science even if they disagree over what to do about it. "But if large parts of the Republican Party begin to deny consensus science," he adds, "then the climate community will have to confront them about it."


Get ready for this to happen if they decide to be stupid and subpoena scientists to appear before Congress - they are ready for the battle. Especially when this kind of idiot is leading the charge:
http://www.desmogblog.com/john-shimkus- ... ge-climate
Watch him backtrack (God promised to not destroy the earth, but wait, religion has nothing to do with the science of climatology... he thinks climate scientists want to "stop climate change" - no, moron, mitigate doesn't mean "stop") and avoid answering direct questions, it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so pitiful that this man was elected as a leader in this country.

http://www.desmogblog.com/will-new-cong ... scientists
Will the New Congress Subpoena Climate Scientists?
22 November 10

Several top House Republicans have indicated that they may want to hold “Climategate” hearings (although more recently, there has been some apparent backing away from this idea).

The question now becomes whether incoming Republicans will follow through on such plans—or if it’s all just a head feint. If they’re serious, they can expect a powerful response from scientists, much like the strong mobilization against Cuccinelli organized by the Union of Concerned Scientists, the American Association of University Professors, and many others.Recently I got the chance to speak with Michael Mann—by far the most attacked climate researcher on the planet—and to ask what he was expecting from the next Congress, and how he might respond. Mann pulled no punches. “I think I speak for the entire scientific community,” he answered, “in saying that if scientists are subject to the sorts of McCarthyite witch hunts that took place during the 1950s, there will I suspect be a very fierce pushback by the scientific community, and by public interest groups that support science.” A congressional subpoena fight could get ugly—but for precisely that reason, it could also backfire for congressional Republicans.

Change is in the winds...

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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01 Dec 2010 19:08 #14 by ckm8

daisypusher wrote:

ckm8 wrote: ..... you can't afford an open mind on this topic.....


rofllol :lol:

I assume this is true for you on other topics as well? Please tell us which topics that you do not have an open mind. Please tell us the misrepresentations you make so as to achieve the results you want. One of the criticisms of socialists/socialism is that the ends justify the means. Hence all the human tragedies that are possible with this type of government. What have you done in your close-minded attempts to assert your "progressive" agenda?

There's something uniquely pitiable about someone who can only make a point by misquoting another poster. You must be having a brutal day if this is the best you can do. I suggest two fingers of Macallen. Neat.

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01 Dec 2010 19:14 #15 by Something the Dog Said

ckm8 wrote:

daisypusher wrote:

ckm8 wrote: ..... you can't afford an open mind on this topic.....


rofllol :lol:

I assume this is true for you on other topics as well? Please tell us which topics that you do not have an open mind. Please tell us the misrepresentations you make so as to achieve the results you want. One of the criticisms of socialists/socialism is that the ends justify the means. Hence all the human tragedies that are possible with this type of government. What have you done in your close-minded attempts to assert your "progressive" agenda?

There's something uniquely pitiable about someone who can only make a point by misquoting another poster. You must be having a brutal day if this is the best you can do. I suggest two fingers of Macallen. Neat.


That works for me.

"Remember to always be yourself. Unless you can be batman. Then always be batman." Unknown

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01 Dec 2010 20:38 #16 by daisypusher

"Climate-science denial is a by-product of extreme partisanship and a kind of reactionary mode among conservatives, and I expect that this will wane," says Paul Bledsoe, a senior adviser to the Bipartisan Policy Center, a centrist think tank based in Washington DC. He says that most Republicans in the current Congress accept the science even if they disagree over what to do about it. "But if large parts of the Republican Party begin to deny consensus science," he adds, "then the climate community will have to confront them about it."


SC, think about this. Consensus science? And this type of article is in Nature. Unheard of 20 years ago. It seems that the merging of science and politics continues when this is what is found in one of the historically more "prestigious" journals. And isn't this part of the problem of why there is "climate-science denial". When it is about politics shouldn't the expression be "climate-politics denial"? The article belongs in Scientific American, not Nature.


On another note, I do feel better - while drinking my IPA. :wink:

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02 Dec 2010 11:10 #17 by ScienceChic

Peter H. Gleik of the Pacific Institute writes, ...there is an improved realization of how impossible it is to keep the climate science questions and debates separate from the political and ideological debates. And I hope we’ve learned the importance of communicating accurately and constantly. Being passive in the face of political repression, ideological misuse of science, and policy ignorance moves us in the wrong direction. I would like to think the community has learned that depending on the “honesty” and “impartiality” of journalism is not enough … that without strong input from climate scientists, the wrong stories get reported, with bad information, and ideological bias.


Consensus science was a bad choice of words on Bledsoe's part. The only reason that there is climate science denial is because the energy businesses stand to lose trillions of dollars and are fighting underhanded and dirty - countering with PR confusion from front groups like the Heritage Foundation and George C. Marshall Institute, delay tactics - stalling legislation with their lobbying, and adding only a few slivers of true credible questions to the overall science. The merging of climate science and politics is complete and will not be undone anytime soon, but it's time to stop bemoaning that fact and address the evidence as it stands, unshaken and continuing the strengthen with every paper published. Climate scientists are finally figuring out that sitting around passively, waiting for mainstream media to improve its reporting, is useless. http://www.desmogblog.com/climate-scien ... m-launched

As well, hoping that Congress will wake up to reality and start tackling this problem rationally and actively, is going to take a more concerted effort - an effort that they are increasingly taking and can take without compromising their integrity or ethics. It is science's job to impart its knowledge to help guide policy decisions effectively. Journals such as Nature and Science have a perfect right to write a piece about something that affects science. If you notice, that article was in the news section, not the research section, and what they reported isn't anything shocking or new - indeed, Science has been reporting on political issues such as budgets and legislation that pertains to science for long before now (I assume Nature as well, but I don't read it on a regular basis - not enough time in my day).

What it's really going to take is a movement by The People. http://www.citizensclimatelobby.org/
I urge you to become informed on this issue and send your letter once you are. Cap and trade is not the answer, but we must start addressing this problem soon or the cost, and damage, will be extensive and it will be our children and grandchildren who bear the burden.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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03 Dec 2010 17:52 #18 by daisypusher
Hey SC, I have an original response for you once I have a chance to write it... :sunshine:

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17 Dec 2010 04:42 #19 by lionshead2010
"The evidence for human caused global warming is as solid as ever."

As an amature weather geek of the sorts, I know the difference between weather and climate and with an undergraduate degree in Geology, I have seen the evidence of continuous fluccuations in the Earth's climate for at least the last 20,000 years or so. But when the Eastern Slope of Colorado is bone dry while Europe is on pace for record breaking snowfall totals you have to wonder what's manmade and what's nature. I know...it's the age old argument but it still makes me wonder.

Perhaps we should move the polar bears to Europe this year.

Europe Prepares for Arctic Blast, Delays at Heathrow

Germany will likely record its coldest December in 40 years, German-based N24 television meteorologist Alexander Hildebrand reported today.

The City of Cologne, Germany’s fourth largest with a population of almost 1 million, is running out of salt needed to grit roads and make them passable, N24 television reported.

In Berlin and the surrounding eastern state of Brandenburg there is likely to be more snow on the ground on Dec. 25 in over 100 years, the statement said.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-1 ... stmas.html

I know, I know....this is WEATHER and not CLIMATE but it still makes you wonder what "climate change" really means for the world. Could it mean persistent warm, dry conditions in Colorado and cold, snowy conditions in Europe? It makes me wonder hmmmmm.

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