Mars men and Venus Women

While the thread Men's rules for women in the Fun House is intended to be funny, it strikes much too close to the truth on many issues that seem to foster tension or poor communication between men and women. Some of us were interested in exploring these issues in a serious way so we can learn something that will perhaps help us mitigate the communication gap. As John Gray proposed, women and men may use the same words, but they carry different meanings. Further there are those fundamental differences that require awareness for further understanding and healthy relationships. So let's get this started either by entertaining one of the comments from the Men's rules for Women thread or a topic of your choosing. You get first crack.

Okay, here goes....

You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done. Not both. If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself.

This is true. And there are differences in the way we think. This is why we have so many misunderstandings. In my eyes. I just melt when the person I am with tries. When I see him try to change something he does for me. may screw it up, but knowing that he cares enough just to try to do something I like means a ton. I know some men just don't know what to do. And I also know that men tend to want to please women. Depending on the guy, but generally. Sometimes, women don't pick up on that. They think that their avoidance is that they don't care. Most times, I see it as a fear of doing the wrong thing. And they don't know what to do. Of course, this depends on the person. So, as much as we are different. If we try to remember and try for each other that is all I ask for. I sure hope that made sense. LOL

I admittedly rail against being told how to do something and for that matter when. There are a number of issues with this to my way of thinking. My upbringing was that we were given a task and expected to do it. If we needed help with it we learned to ask for it. If the task needed to be done by a certain time, we were told of that constraint. As an adult, I rake on the responsibility of the tasks with which I'm entrusted. Generally I do not need help, in fact I learn by taking on tasks about which I know nothing and enjoy the sense of figuring it out. If you did not specify when you needed something done, don't rant later because you failed to communicate your need. I'm not a mind reader and have my own to do list together with a priority list in my head. Telling me how to do it is to my mind telling me you do not trust in my ability to get the task done or it will not be done the way you would do it. There is more than one way to do most everything in life. I have my own ways of working and will gladly do what you want done when it fits into my schedule. In many ways this draws parallels to the issue women have with men trying to solve their problems instead of just listening and being empathetic. My understanding is women simply want to talk about things so they eventually get to the point where they need or want to be. We just want to be left to our own devises to get the work done. If there is a time constraint, you can communicate that to us, let us grumble about it (our way of adjusting to the change in priorities) and then we will do it because we love doing things for our loved ones.

I have a question about "tries". Tries to do what? Change? Understand? Adapt? Understand and adapting are OK. in fact gaining understanding is essential. For example, it is OK for me to learn that it is best if I came home from work for lunch and to just ask how my spouses or significant' other's day has gone. I can do that, especially when I understand how important it is to you. I will listen, try not to get ansy when I get lost on the many tangental rings in the conversation, and try not to get antsy when the topic holds little interest. I can also change certain aspects of my behavior or personality. The problem with this is we may not share the perception of what needs or is desirable to change. There needs to be agreement, not dictation. Again experience suggests problems already exist in the relationship since often what you hear is "you have a problem... its not me. You need to change." Trying to change behaviour just to appease your mate leads to problems. I tried that but the new behavior is fundamentally at odds with who I am and after a while if you keep trying to change a couple of things happen. One, you don't even know who you are any more and end up not liking yourself (been there and done that), and two, resentment grows. This type of relationship is not nurturing, it is manipulative.

Yes. men (certainly I want to please my woman) want to please women. Not only do some women not pick up on it, they rail against it. I can not tell you how many times in my most recently divorced relationship, I would make a special effort to do something that I thought would be appreciated by her. For example, I may go to the store an pick up a cartoon of milk that only she used, but I saw we were out of it. Instead of pleasing her, I experienced anger and a scolding for not asking her what else we needed. Talk about deflation... THen if I volunteered to go to the store and pick up what else we needed, I received a lecture about waste of time, energy, etc. She completely missed the point and sowed the seeds of utter resentment.

Much of what you say seems to be part of a circle in a poor relationship. Avoidance and fear of doing something wrong follow on the heals of constant rejection of one's best efforts to please. One is left, as you astutely pointed out, not knowing what to do. That is what I experienced before. While one can live with and try to work with one another, I think this points to some fundamental differences not between men and women, but between personalities and values.

Nowhere have I experienced this more dramatically than now. My Sunshine thinks I'm romantic whereas before I was anything but romantic. I'm a big time doer, so part of my trying to please my women is to do things for her. Whereas before these gestures of love were rejected they are now embraced and seen for what they are. Instead of rejection, I get an embrace and feel loved for it. If you find a compatible person, life becomes much simpler and easier. One is not constantly straining at the bit or hiding in avoidance. Does this mean that there aren't those occasional misunderstandings that result in flared tempers. No, but, instead of cultivating reasons to stay angry, the opposite occurs. We look for the first opportunity to make up, allow ourselves to accept apologies and find reasons to make up as quickly as possible, preferably within an hour or less, certainly before the day ends. There is a huge difference to be experienced in a nurturing relationship and I think many women would be surprised how well their men would react.

Well let's see. Very much agree with the change thing. No one likes to 'have' to change to be loved. Agree agree agree.

I know I tend to think simplistically sometimes but when I said 'tries', I meant just that. When I see someone that I love try for me, on his own, that makes me feel cared about. There is one thing I really want, when there is a misunderstanding after a bit of time if we both can say we are sorry and be 'real' with each other about our feelings. Then all is right in the world with me. I think for me the biggest thing I have learned throughout my failed relationships is.... I want the other person to love me for me. Everyone wants that. But as they say to get a better friend, be a better friend. And friendship for me is number one.

Being new in the dating world I hear the same old thing.... the same old way of doing things. In my world the people that I am most comfortable with are the ones that learn from their mistakes and change. Because I change.

No, but, instead of cultivating reasons to stay angry, the opposite occurs. We look for the first opportunity to make up, allow ourselves to accept apologies and find reasons to make up as quickly as possible, preferably within an hour or less, certainly before the day ends. There is a huge difference to be experienced in a nurturing relationship and I think many women would be surprised how well their men would react.
Very interesting statement. So, true. And a side note,,, I think this is why I like older. Older is wiser if you are a learner, that is. But same goes for men being surprised by women, should men do this too.....

Also, my daughter got married a year and a half ago. She read the book 'the five languages of love" Interesting book because if you learn how your partner likes to show love, there are five, then you understand what they are saying to you with their actions. And that can help with assumptions. (biggest love and friend killer)

I am happy you found something great.

Of course, change occurs. Agreed, we all change (most?) when open to lessons taught by experiences, be they through reading, counseling, relationship interaction, etc. Your statement about dating is interesting to me.

Being new in the dating world I hear the same old thing.... the same old way of doing things. In my world the people that I am most comfortable with are the ones that learn from their mistakes and change. Because I change.

Relationship ignorance embraces youthful men in particular. Let me borrow this generalized characterization from looking back at myself. We believe ourselves to be a rock, an island, immortal. We assume no differences exist between the sexes other than obvious physical ones. We are out of touch with feelings, do not know how to process them when they surface so undesirable ones get buried in the mistaken believe that is how one gets over them. Worst of all we live in a world insulated from realizing a relationship requires constant work because it's constantly changing and growing in various directions. A long-lasting successful relationship needs to penetrate this male armor and I believe it takes a special woman and man for that to happen (grow and keep it together). The key word is successful. It does not mean a relationship where they simply occupy the same household, sleep in separate rooms and have not experienced growth together or stay together for the kids sake. The person I was at 21 is still inside me. I've retained my core values, but shed the protective armor of ignorance for a fine garment of wisdom through changes I have made too. Note these changes were electives born from experiences that forced me to look at myself, not demands by a mate.

Wiser men and women can still be held hostage by unfinished business of their childhood. Likely we all have them in the form of being control freaks, an inability to forgive, perceiving one is a victim, and several other personality types. Perhaps this relates to you your five languages of love? Clearly the learning and evolution (change) of a character remains an on-going process throughout a lifetime.

I greatly admire women for their relationship sensitivity (a generalization I know). They generally are better connected with reality and a wise man will seek council from a woman when it comes to relationship matters.

This man also believes he had to go through a series of failed marriages to evolve to the point where I was worthy of the woman, the universe had in mind for me.

Your statement about admiring women for their sensitivity intrigues me. I think many men think they need a woman that thinks like them to be happy and women think they need a man that is like a woman to be happy. Thinking about chick flicks here. But really generally we are attracted to opposites for a reason. We want the best traits in the opposite sex. So, we can mesh those traits together a person that can fill the gaps and help with the things we are not good at. Instead of seeing those differences as a problem, see it as the person that helps you with the things you are not good at.

Opposites attract, then we drive each other nuts. LOL. And it seems experience is what cures that. Unless you were lucky enough to have parents that got that and modeled it to you. I had to learn the hard way, and still am learning. For me I have to keep remembering that I want the opposite of me sometimes or I learn nothing and I can't live that way.

Thinking similarly does not automatically equate to happiness in my book, but it does equate to understanding one another more easily. It also equates to seeing similar goals more readily. I've gone the opposites routine and generally that was not a problem in itself. In some ways it gave me an opportunity to experience ? Shall I call them alternative life styles? without the associated risk. Of course that fails to consider the ultimate divorce. Where I ran into problems with that was in incompatible core values. There were some things I simply could not get past no matter how hard I tried. Reflecting back on those days, I see a manipulative relationship, one that taught me much about not wanting to make change just because the other person declares you have a problem that is causing the problem in the relationship.

My statement about admiring women for their sensitivity is a acknowlegement that they have a skill I do not possess, at least not to their level. It does not mean I need a woman to think like me. Instead I recognize her sensitivity as an asset for me to utilize. It's in a way an opposite. So we are in agreement here. They are complimentary traits that help make us whole.

I'm not convinced experience cures driving each other nuts. I think an ability to accept that your own way of doing or seeing things is not the only way is significant in this regard. Obviously, attraction to opposites is like a magnetic interaction. Perhaps there is a basic message imprinted into our DNA that governs attraction to an extent?

Often I have lamented the lack of good parental models because I've spent a lifetime learning the hard way. I've lamented on more than one occasion its taken me a lifetime to learn what I have. Why could I not have know these things in youth? But let's look at it this from another perspective. Our parents did instill in us core values, eg. an eagerness to learn. From our roll models perhaps we also learned that we did not want a relationship like they had, or we did not want to parent like they did. Through that environmental pressure, we evolve. I see a progressive change for the better in one generation to the next. By our current standards, our parents were poor roll models, We improved on it, and I see my oldest vastly improving on what I gave as a parent during their youth. There is hope.

I'm struck once again with the question I've asked myself so often. What is it that keeps driving us to seek the perfect relationship for ourselves? Is it something ingrained or learned? Does everyone feel the same drive and are they willing to pay the price to find it? I think I have answers to some of these questions but not all. There is something inside me I've (not identified yet), that has driven me a lifetime. I do not think everyone feels the same drive nor are they willing to pay the price associated with it (financial and emotional). Some escape into living life alone, some shun making a permanent commitment, others simply accept their condition and resign themselves to the fact that is their lot in life.

What is it that keeps driving us to seek the perfect relationship for ourselves? Is it something ingrained or learned? Does everyone feel the same drive and willing to pay the price to find it?

There are so many nuances but what first comes to mind? culture, media and family pasts have alot to do with it. And no not everyone has the same drive to do it a different way. Do you know how many people just end up like their parents? Because they don't challenge their past and family ideas. Those messages are automatic and it takes work to get past them.

OK, I just realized that I need a Scotch or two before I try to decypher this thread!

LOL Perhaps after one Scotch you will want to give us your insights. It is fascinating to exchange some thought-provoking ideas.