Conifer Park & Rec District Discussion Thread

Wily Weasel wrote:

deltamrey wrote: I would refer you to Doug Kinzy's article in Serenity (he is the editor) FEB 2011........he has been here 30+ years and seems to completely (mostly) disagree with your entire position.

Because obviously 285 will be developed in the long term as the back door to Summit County and because obviously (drive 285 3-7 PM Fridays) the folks here with real work are going to Denver, it is prudent to look at the future and not hold on (cling) to the past. The two new shopping centers were developed obviously looking forward not in the rear view mirror.We cannot stop progress but only control the process at best.

and what is the occupancy rate? . . they are MOSTLY empty - built not for forward progress, but the usual greedy land developers....

And don't forget the rousing success of the development at Kings Valley . . .

These are all struggling because the economy here is collapsed (not so in many other areas)......look past the current depression here fueled by no appreciable economic base and to the future. The wealth here comes UP the mountain- focus, focus.

I failed to point out that when I was a teenager living here in the 80s, and a college student, and then as an adult who came back here regularly to visit my parents in the 1990s, main street Evergreen was NEVER empty. Safeway complex was NEVER empty. Old Safeway complex, after it was built, was NEVER empty. King Soopers complex in Bergen Park, after it was built - NEVER empty. Even the complex here on 285 past Conifer, going towards Richmond Hill - NEVER empty. Then we got Walmart, and the new King Soopers complex in Aspen Park, and a new Safeway complex - and now, the Kings Valley complex. Now everyone has empty spaces, partly due to the economy, mainly due to the greed of the complex owners.

That greed keeps up, you will NOT get new businesses here - even the major chains -Chili's, Baskin Robbins, Dominos left this side of the hill not because business was bad - business was very good for all of them (we asked) but because of the rising rental rates, rising maintenance costs, all so the landlords, who couldn't fill the rest of their complex, could line their pockets even more.

Businesses know this about these complexes, and so they don't come up here. Focus, focus, Del.

You want more businesses up here, you have to cure the overweening greed. Good luck with that.

LOL - Doug Kinzy as an expert. Dude, I worked on the newspapers up here post high school and during college breaks - his views are those of people with big money, NOT the average resident who has been here all their lives, or who moved here for the lifestyle. You do know he only runs the newspaper as a hobby, right? That it runs as a loss and has NEVER been taken seriously by long time residents? That most people view it as a real estate magazine, not any sort of serious news? For good reason - it isn't. It's fluff articles that appeal to people with a household income of $150K or higher. Have you ever noted that he never hires males, no matter how qualified they are? Sorry buddy, welcome to small town life. Hard for people to take you seriously when people know too much about your proclivities. Only time I'd take him seriously is if he jumped out in front of my car on the highway. Using his "magazine" as a source of fact is fallacious. Actually look up the history of the area, use census data, hell use your own eyes. If can't see the empty businesses, then I suggest a visit to the eye doctors.

One man is not the expert on how business up here is - the actual business owners are.

"That greed keeps up, you will NOT get new businesses here - even the major chains -Chili's, Baskin Robbins, Dominos left this side of the hill not because business was bad - business was very good for all of them (we asked) but because of the rising rental rates, rising maintenance costs, all so the landlords, who couldn't fill the rest of their complex, could line their pockets even more."

Business was NOT good for any of them - you need a course in Business 101..........few businesses that are profitable close. What ???? !!!!!

I see you NEVER talked to the management at Chili's, nor did you pay attention to all the news about it up here, on the forums, in the newspapers. All those companies have a profit base they must make to keep a business in an area. All of those companies have an maximum amount they are willing to pay out for C&M, for rent, for other assorted fees related to the property. Chili's made it clear they were well exceeding their profit base, but the complex raised rates- specifically, it was for plowing of the lots; Chili's was being charged for plowing the main lot as well as their own. Chili's talked and talked to the owner, there was no compromise.

Chili's made a public statement. Starbuck's considered leaving at the same time FOR THE SAME REASON. Baskin Robbins left for the same reason. This was all over the place, all anyone could talk about for weeks two years ago or so. People can back me up on this. Lucille's failed from poor management. The others left because the costs exceeded their corporate limits, not for lack of customers.

Oh, but you weren't here then, were you? So you have no real clue what actually was going on. You need to learn how business actually runs, not the high school econ course we all took, nor the ones I took in college (and passed nicely, thank you) theory means nothing, actual experience means all.

If this excessive rental rates were not an issue, then tell me, where did the radiology center, the natural grocers, and other busineses we were PROMISED were under contract and were going to fill up King's Valley suddenly go? Not because the chains folded, but because the costs exceeded what their corporate structure was going to allow for.

Ask around - I'm not the only one who knows this by far.

You know so well how this area should be run - so stop talking and start making it happen. A rec district is NOT going to bring new business, because they'll get hit by those taxes as well, you know.

But if you think you can fill these complexes with businesses, then start doing it, rather than continuing to discredit yourself by making it clear you don't know the whys and hows of up here.

Business 101........excessive (whatever) rates are a part of business - IF the firm has adequate revenue it is absorbed. Obviously the revenue stream here is inadequate. Locals here do not want to blame poor decisions and inept business practices - but greed and ....... pick from a list of lame excuses.

Untrue - but feel free to email them and ask. They will NOT absorb exorbitant rates- stop thinking 1980s econ, start learning 2000s econ. No longer the same thing.

If you are unwilling to compare the rates for same size complexes in various area of Denver, including the high end ones like Cherry Creek, and see how the rates up here stack up, then anything you have to say on the matter is automatically discreditted. Lots of us have, and I can point you to business owners who run a business here and in Denver- for the same costs, they get 2-4 times as much space- in high end areas - and much more traffic. Explain that away as poor business by the business owners. You cannot. It is poor business by the property owners.

But like I said - what are you going to do besides whinge and whine to get changes up here? I'm using my vote, AND I took my business downhill and online. What are you going to do to make the changes YOU want beside spout off on a public forum?

No one person can make the changes in a culture that is wounded. Going down the hill may for any given individual be the best solution. Cultural change usually happens when the PAIN is so high that old paradigms wither. This area was underwritten by development - nothing more - nothing less. There is nothing else here. Who cares that a developer wants to sink millions into new facilities even with unused facilities idle - his business entirely. The development provides jobs for numerous people who just may spend their salaries here.
So often I hear no more building because there is idle space and foreclosed homes (What does that have to do with the employment created by more development - except it may depress property values - can they go lower ??). This is a bogus position, obviously.
IF we are to progress here we must repopulate slowly with skilled people (not back hoe operators and snow plow operators)...BTW this is a National problem. IF we turn around the culture based on football, beer and booze rehab it will take decades (BTW selling and growing dope is not a solution). I note Google is locating in Boulder (an example) - those jobs have no opportunity here because we have not the skill sets........start by focusing on skills developed in 5th grade (Math, science) and dump the fluff from the schools - a start that will take decades to address. I see no other solutions in the short term - live with it !!! My condolences.

And creating another government entity with eminent domain and taxing powers is going to solve the “economic woes” of Conifer? No thanks