Faster than light

16 Oct 2011 14:53 #21 by ScienceChic
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Faster than light
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... tronomy%29
Followup: FTL neutrinos explained? Not so fast, folks.
by Phil Plait
October 15th, 2011

Some scientists created neutrinos at CERN in Geneva, and then measured how long it took them to reach a detector called OPERA, located in Italy. When they did the math, it looked like the neutrinos actually got there by traveling a hair faster than the speed of light! 60 nanoseconds faster, to be accurate.

Was relativity doomed? Nope. In fact, relativity may very well be what saves the day here.

First, most scientists were skeptical. Even the people running the experiment were skeptical, and were basically asking everyone else for help. They figured they might have made a mistake as well, and couldn’t figure out what had happened. Most everyone zeroed in on the timing of the experiment, which has to be extremely accurate. The entire flight time of a neutrino from Switzerland to Italy is only about 2.4 milliseconds, and the measurement accuracy needs to be to only a few nanoseconds...The scientists used a very sophisticated GPS setup to determine the timing, so that has been the focus of a lot of scrutiny as well. And a new paper just posted on the Physics Preprint Archive may have the answer… and it uses relativity.

The timing was measured using a GPS satellite orbiting the Earth, and moving relative to CERN and OPERA. That means the distance traveled by the neutrinos would be less as measured by the GPS sat as it would be from the ground, and therefore wouldn’t take as long to cover it. Doing the detailed math, van Elburg calculates how much faster the neutrinos would be expected to arrive accounting for the satellite’s motion, and he gets… 64 nanoseconds. That’s almost exactly the discrepancy measured by the original experimenters.


"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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18 Nov 2011 11:20 #22 by Blazer Bob
Replied by Blazer Bob on topic Faster than light
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

"A second experiment at the European facility that reported subatomic particles zooming faster than the speed of light — stunning the world of physics — has reached the same result, scientists said late Thursday.

The “positive outcome of the [second] test makes us more confident in the result,” said Fernando Ferroni, president of the Italian Institute for Nuclear Physics, in a statement released late Thursday. Ferroni is one of 160 physicists involved in the international collaboration known as OPERA (Oscillation Project with Emulsion Tracking Apparatus) that performed the experiment."

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CERN neutrinos don’t “disprove” Einstein

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18 Nov 2011 11:46 #23 by ScienceChic
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Faster than light
http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... m=facebook
Faster-Than-Light Neutrinos: OPERA Confirms and Submits Results, But Unease Remains
by Edwin Cartlidge on 17 November 2011

New high-precision tests carried out by the OPERA collaboration in Italy broadly confirm its claim, made in September, to have detected neutrinos travelling at faster than the speed of light. The collaboration today submitted its results to a journal, but some members continue to insist that further checks are needed before the result can be considered sound.

The collaboration has also checked its original statistical analysis, but today's decision to submit the results to a journal was not unanimous. "About four people" among the group of around 15 who did not sign the preprint have signed the journal submission, according to a source within the collaboration, while "four new people" have decided not to sign. That leaves the number of dissenters at about 15...

The question of whether or not OPERA really has seen faster-than-light neutrinos will probably be settled only once the results of other experiments are in.

The journey continues!

Edit to add:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... tronomy%29
New experiment neither proves nor refutes FTL neutrinos
by Phil Plait
November 21st, 2011

Let me be clear: this new result does not confirm FTL neutrinos! What it did was essentially eliminate one possible source of error. A big one still remains. Most people, including me, think that the way they timed the experiment may be the source of the problem.


http://www.popsci.com/technology/articl ... rino-claim
Now, A Second Italian Study Rejects Faster-Than-Light Neutrino Claim
By Rebecca Boyle Posted 11.21.2011

Another new twist in the science of scofflaw neutrinos: A second Italian physics group now says they are not moving faster than light after all. So the foundations of modern physics appear safe for now — but this debate will likely not be settled for some time.

But on Saturday, the ICARUS experiment, another experiment at Gran Sasso, said OPERA did not properly account for the neutrinos’ energy on arrival. If the ghostly particles were actually moving faster than light, they should have lost most of their energy, radiating decay products like photons and electron pairs. But they didn’t, and instead the ICARUS team found an energy spectrum that corresponds with neutrinos traveling at light speed.


"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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23 Feb 2012 09:47 #24 by Blazer Bob
Replied by Blazer Bob on topic Faster than light
RATS.


"You can shelf your designs for a warp drive engine (for now) and put the DeLorean back in the garage; it turns out neutrinos may not have broken any cosmic speed limits after all.

Now, according to a breaking news article by Edwin Cartlidge on AAAS’ ScienceInsider, the neutrinos may be cleared of any speed violations.

“According to sources familiar with the experiment, the 60 nanoseconds discrepancy appears to come from a bad connection between a fiber optic cable that connects to the GPS receiver used to correct the timing of the neutrinos’ flight and an electronic card in a computer,” Cartlidge reported.

http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-02-fas ... iring.html

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23 Feb 2012 18:25 #25 by Martin Ent Inc
Replied by Martin Ent Inc on topic Faster than light
So you may not be able to travel fast enough to kick yourself in the ass after all.

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26 Feb 2012 17:05 #26 by pineinthegrass
Replied by pineinthegrass on topic Faster than light

First, Einstein was right. Then he was wrong. Then he was right due to a loose wire. Now he may have been wrong due to an oscillator. Many of us would just throw up our hands and say everything is relative with Einstein, but scientists at OPERA say that a second equipment problem may have led to a too conservative reading of the 730-kilometer journey of the neutrinos reported by the European Organization for Nuclear Research or CERN.

The oscillator is used to provide time stamps to synchronize the GPS systems which measure the travel time. The scientists believe that the oscillator problem may have canceled out the cable problem . . . and that the little neutrinos did move faster than the speed of light — beyond the cosmic speed barrier of 186,282 miles per second (299,792 kilometers per second). That would contradict Einstein’s theory. So I guess we have to treat Einstein like a big dummy again . . . absent another loose cable or spilled coffee cup.

I am just waiting for a finding that neutrinos are sentient with a wicked sense of humor . . . and hovering around 299,791 kilometers per second just to mess with us.


http://jonathanturley.org/2012/02/24/bad-opera-scientists-now-believe-a-bad-oscillator-may-have-slowed-speeds-of-subatomic-particles/

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