Nation's CEOs paid better last year than in 2007

BearMtnHIB wrote:

"For the 8 years that Bush was in power and transferring the wealth from the middle-class to the wealthy with unpaid for tax-cuts, and if all this wealth at the top creates more jobs, where are they?"

What we have now is a system where the government picks the winners and the losers in our economy- with all those special tax breaks. And I agree they all need to be eliminated. GE pays no taxes because of the special rules- a smaller competitor may have a 30% tax rate.

I don't have all the answers on how to get the jobs that went to china and india back- and I don't think the left has the answer either. They may not ever come back.

It's going to be tough, we need to innovate and create new industry, and provide incentives to keep business here. We need a business friendly environment.

It we don't - we are all screwed.

I didn't ask you for your (misguided) opinion on "what we have now".... I asked you: "For the 8 years that Bush was in power and transferring the wealth from the middle-class to the wealthy with unpaid for tax-cuts, and if all this wealth at the top creates more jobs, where are they?"

But I didn't expect you do anything else but engage the "weapons of mass deflection"....

AspenValley wrote:

BearMtnHIB wrote:

Sorry. I'm not drinking that koolaid.

Taxes, personal, corporate and capital gains, are at one of the lowest levels they have been at since WWII. The percentage of union workers has dropped to about a third of what it was in the 1950s.

In fact, big business has gotten practically everything they have demanded, dished up to them under 30 years of Republican dominance, including the gutting of a lot of regulations. Obama hasn't raised corporate tax rates. So that means that for 12 straight years, all the things you say are what are needed for job growth were there.

We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the free world. Regulations are so numerous that companies need accountants and laywers to interpret them.

Where are the jobs?

They left- and they are not comin back until they see a friendly environment again.
There are trillions of investment dollars waiting..... waiting....... waiting.....
Capital is on strike.

LOL, you know as well as I do that the corporate tax RATE has absolutely nothing to do with how much taxes corporations actually PAY. How many multi-million dollar corporations pay NO TAXES? And even if that argument wasn't nonsense, and it is, it is not a new development. How do you account for the fact that American corporations were paying higher tax rates in the 1960s than they do now, yes even in comparison to other countries, and yet there were lots of good jobs with good benefits? Lots of UNION jobs I might add.

As to the second part of your statement, yes, they left. But they left because they could hire people in Pakistan and India and Mexico at a fraction of what they were paying American employees. And you're right, they're not coming back until they see a "friendly" environment, meaning that our wages are as low as those in India. Is that the vision you have for America?

If you do not like the vision of lower wages, but local jobs, how would you encourage companies to bring their labor back? Raising tariffs might do it, but its a global market these days and companies can sell and make a profit in many other countries, so they might just shun selling their products in the US. So what other means are available to create a "friendly" environment, as that is what it is clearly going to take?

Before this gets better, it will get worse. We see that in technology heading overseas where companies like Microsoft or Apple can find highly trained people who work at a fraction of the cost US labor demands. If I'm going to compete with oil industry consultants across the globe, my rates need to be in accord with those other consultants are getting. It may mean I work for less than I used to. The global market place sets the pay scale. The same can be said for all other jobs throughout the US. The global market sets the pay scale, meaning many Americans will either have to lower their wage expectations or retool into a skill set that still enables them to be paid at a higher rate provided they can compete for those jobs. Reality can be rather cruel and that has little to do with democrat or republican.

Rockdoc Franz wrote: If you do not like the vision of lower wages, but local jobs, how would you encourage companies to bring their labor back? Raising tariffs might do it, but its a global market these days and companies can sell and make a profit in many other countries, so they might just shun selling their products in the US. So what other means are available to create a "friendly" environment, as that is what it is clearly going to take?

Before this gets better, it will get worse. We see that in technology heading overseas where companies like Microsoft or Apple can find highly trained people who work at a fraction of the cost US labor demands. If I'm going to compete with oil industry consultants across the globe, my rates need to be in accord with those other consultants are getting. It may mean I work for less than I used to. The global market place sets the pay scale. The same can be said for all other jobs throughout the US. The global market sets the pay scale, meaning many Americans will either have to lower their wage expectations or retool into a skill set that still enables them to be paid at a higher rate provided they can compete for those jobs. Reality can be rather cruel and that has little to do with democrat or republican.

My feeling on this is that the jobs are going to go overseas and continue to go overseas until global wages come to more or less equilibrium. This will happen whether we try to bribe the rich with tax cuts or not. At this point I think it serves about as much purpose as it would to burn incense to Baal.

So if we're looking at what may very well turn out to be the impoverishment of tens of millions of Americans, I'd just as soon not add insult to injury by alsoo saddling what's left of the middle class with the brunt of the deficit that results when you cut taxes drastically, especially on the highest earners, and at the same time keep increasing expdentitures, as was done throughout the Bush administration and continues today. In my opinion it was a cynical and cruel strategy that the perpetrators were fully aware of, not some accidental by-product of Bush policy. Although once it was set in motion it is not clear to me how it could have been reversed, either by Bush or Obama.

It's too late to do anything about that now, of course, but now we have a problem of a huge deficit with a population that is looking at permanently reduced economic prospects. Slashing the budget beyond reason isn't going to change any of this, in fact, may make the pain even more intense on those who have or will yet lose their jobs, the retired, and the sick.

Yes, there is going to be pain, lots of it. My guess is that the only way out of this is going to be severe inflation that effectively wipes out most of the public and private debt. It will also, of course, wipe out pensions and savings at a time when people can little afford it, but the math doesn't lie. The debt is pretty much unpayalbe otherwise.

And i agree that this isn't really a partisan issue. The problems were brought on by partisan ideology that was allowed to trump the best interests of the nation of a whole, but there is no partisan solution to this. Those who imagine that "if only" we had a libertarian in office, or an old school conservative, or four more years of Obama, or God Knows What, are deluded. It's too late for policy solutions and at any rate, political ideology has become so dependent on fantasy worlds conjured up by the likes of Ayn Rand or other utopian dreams that have no bearing on reality that I can't imagine any political solution that wouldn't just make things worse than they already are.

What would happen if we stopped giving money to a bunch of nations that hate us? Would we fix our deficit spending and debt?

Would we end up in wars with these nations because we wanted to save money?

And getting back to CEO's, mentioning Gates is stupid. He didn't bring his company down to bankruptcy.

Rockdoc Franz wrote: If you do not like the vision of lower wages, but local jobs, how would you encourage companies to bring their labor back? Raising tariffs might do it,

Bingo! And you did'nt even know the first things about Tarriffs until I explained how that works to you a last month..Now you're saying it? lol
I guess I should be flattered.

Read my signature Roc

AspenValley wrote:

Rockdoc Franz wrote: If you do not like the vision of lower wages, but local jobs, how would you encourage companies to bring their labor back? Raising tariffs might do it, but its a global market these days and companies can sell and make a profit in many other countries, so they might just shun selling their products in the US. So what other means are available to create a "friendly" environment, as that is what it is clearly going to take?

Before this gets better, it will get worse. We see that in technology heading overseas where companies like Microsoft or Apple can find highly trained people who work at a fraction of the cost US labor demands. If I'm going to compete with oil industry consultants across the globe, my rates need to be in accord with those other consultants are getting. It may mean I work for less than I used to. The global market place sets the pay scale. The same can be said for all other jobs throughout the US. The global market sets the pay scale, meaning many Americans will either have to lower their wage expectations or retool into a skill set that still enables them to be paid at a higher rate provided they can compete for those jobs. Reality can be rather cruel and that has little to do with democrat or republican.

My feeling on this is that the jobs are going to go overseas and continue to go overseas until global wages come to more or less equilibrium. This will happen whether we try to bribe the rich with tax cuts or not. At this point I think it serves about as much purpose as it would to burn incense to Baal.

So if we're looking at what may very well turn out to be the impoverishment of tens of millions of Americans, I'd just as soon not add insult to injury by alsoo saddling what's left of the middle class with the brunt of the deficit that results when you cut taxes drastically, especially on the highest earners, and at the same time keep increasing expdentitures, as was done throughout the Bush administration and continues today. In my opinion it was a cynical and cruel strategy that the perpetrators were fully aware of, not some accidental by-product of Bush policy. Although once it was set in motion it is not clear to me how it could have been reversed, either by Bush or Obama.

It's too late to do anything about that now, of course, but now we have a problem of a huge deficit with a population that is looking at permanently reduced economic prospects. Slashing the budget beyond reason isn't going to change any of this, in fact, may make the pain even more intense on those who have or will yet lose their jobs, the retired, and the sick.

Yes, there is going to be pain, lots of it. My guess is that the only way out of this is going to be severe inflation that effectively wipes out most of the public and private debt. It will also, of course, wipe out pensions and savings at a time when people can little afford it, but the math doesn't lie. The debt is pretty much unpayalbe otherwise.

And i agree that this isn't really a partisan issue. The problems were brought on by partisan ideology that was allowed to trump the best interests of the nation of a whole, but there is no partisan solution to this. Those who imagine that "if only" we had a libertarian in office, or an old school conservative, or four more years of Obama, or God Knows What, are deluded. It's too late for policy solutions and at any rate, political ideology has become so dependent on fantasy worlds conjured up by the likes of Ayn Rand or other utopian dreams that have no bearing on reality that I can't imagine any political solution that wouldn't just make things worse than they already are.

Ah..Roll back NAFTA, and pupblicly fianance campeigns, and it's..

ALL much BETTER!

AspenValley wrote: The problems were brought on by partisan ideology that was allowed to trump the best interests of the nation of a whole, [.

I disagree. I do not think it is a partisan issue, rather it is a class issue. The political class and everyone else.

I think bear is right, the only way to reign it in is to restrict there ability to dictate economic winners and losers.

I also believe that the only way that is remotely possible is starve them of there ability to spend.

I agree with you AV it will be very painful. It might financially devastate many, including myself.

What choice do we have, after all it is for the children.

neptunechimney wrote:

AspenValley wrote: The problems were brought on by partisan ideology that was allowed to trump the best interests of the nation of a whole, [.

I disagree. I do not think it is a partisan issue, rather it is a class issue. The political class and everyone else.

I think bear is right, the only way to reign it in is to restrict there ability to dictate economic winners and losers.

I also believe that the only way that is remotely possible is starve them of there ability to spend.

I agree with you AV it will be very painful. It might financially devastate many, including myself.

What choice do we have, after all it is for the children.

Seriously-Its dumb messages like this that make me wonder why I waste any time here..And AV is not as enlightened as I thought she was

As always AV a very thoughtful post. Thank you for your insights and opinions. And Neptuenchimney, I suppose at this point the only reason to even consider the past is for learning from history. I could care less who was responsible for the mess we face, I do care about what we can do about it and that begins by vetting potential political candidate and thus making a better choice than some of us did yesteryear.

The future bodes ill for us. Like you, I will have to continue working as long as I can and hope that my services will be needed. I've already wiped out my IRA, so only a continued struggle awaits. So be it. I'm willing to face the future and take responsibility for that with which I'm entrusted.

I do not think a solution (as many would have us believe) lies in raping corporations. That is a short-sighted approach. We can agree that the compensation for certain CEO's is out of line, but again it is not up to us to regulate them. CEO compensation and regulation belongs to the board and shareholders. Government needs to stay the hell out of it.

Only today Holly and I got into a discussion of shoes and their cost. This led to looking at tariffs on shoes. I was amazed to see that our government slaps a 67% tariff on the cheapest shoes and no tariff on the most expensive $300 italian shoes. Something is wrong with that as this is where the low and middle class really gets hit hard. I'm aware those tariffs are in place to help our national shoe industry stay competitive. Somehow, I do not think it is serving our people well. How about we slap a 60$ tariff on the most expensive shoes instead?

It seems much of the government protectionism in place needs to be rethought. We need to prepare for global wage equality and global pricing. How do we do this so it hurts the least is a major question. This is way out of my field of expertise, but let's have some thoughts from you experts out there. How can we make the necessary transition? What changes do we need to see in government? What changes do we need to see from employers? What changes do we need to see from all of us? It becomes a question of attitude.

Rescue plans for the auto industry may have saved jobs in the short run, but I wonder if it will translate into a long term solution? If it does, one can not say that at least some of the bail outs were ill conceived. Now the banking sector is another story altogether. I think many of the banks should have simply failed.

Edited to add: VL, we are looking for posts from people who think. Thanks for trying.

Rockdoc Franz wrote: . We need to prepare for global wage equality.

rofllol You gonna tell people that they shouldn't work for less money for the common good of everyone?..Sounds like a super lefty die hard Union man to me!

Welcome to the club buddy


BTW-Do you even know what you stand for- or do you just try for reasonable sounding, fence sitting, i'm above it all, and smarter than eveyone postings?

I see right through it