How to die in Oregon.

PrintSmith wrote: <snip>

It is a belief, I will grant you that. A belief that others may not share, I understand that as well. But I can't give my approval to allow something that I view as so intrinsically wrong simply because others may believe differently. I simply can't do that in this instance. I'm sorry, but I can't. It is beyond my ability to accept. It might be my failing, but I can't give my approval, even tacitly.

Therein lies my interest. Since it is a "belief" is it right to push it on others? I realize a lot of folks think of us as special and of "higher," so to speak mind, but I don't see it that way. If we are of higher mind, would we not be even *more* interested in being humane?

See where I am coming from, PS?

Perhaps we just see things a bit differently here my friend. I do not equate my unwillingness to support the practice or have it enshrined in our laws as "pushing" my beliefs onto others anymore than I think that their attempts to have it enshrined in the laws pushes their beliefs onto me. The laws are simply a reflection of the values of the society held by the people that live within it. Those laws are subject to modification over time as the values of the people that live within the society change. If the values remain constant, so too then do the laws of that society. The values of Oregon and Colorado may be vastly different, and their laws would necessarily reflect that difference. That is perhaps the greatest strength of having the system of governance envisioned by those who founded this nation where each state remains a sovereign entity in charge of the domestic affairs of its citizens while also providing that the rights each of us was endowed with at our creation are not compromised.

FWIW, I don't consider what happened with my Pa inhumane. Quite the contrary in fact. I stood by his side as he changed from the man who could do no wrong and knew everything when I was a child; to the man who knew nothing and could do no right when I was a teen; to the man whose wisdom I sought out and appreciated as an adult; to a helpless man who could do nothing for himself in the days prior to his death. I was with him when he drew his final breath, and I can promise you that his death was filled with dignity and was a humane ending to the life that he led despite the fact that he could no longer speak, no longer walk, no longer control his bowels and was, in fact, as helpless as the newborn infant he entered the world as. I would have spared him the pain that his cancer caused had I been able, but I would not take from him one moment of his life.

PS: Interesting. I too, watched my Dad suffer from Alzheimer's and turn into a brittle shell of the wonderful, life-filled man he was when I was growing up. He ultimately died of cancer and was in quite a bit of pain; though he could not verbalize his pain or tell anyone anything because by that time the dementia had taken complete control.

He mentioned about 5 years before he died, right at the beginning of his dementia, that when it was his time he "wanted to be taken out back and shot". His words verbatim. We tried to let him die as pain-free as we could...but I don't know if it was in conjunction with his wishes and I'm not at all sure it was dignified.

The lens of our own thoughts is the one through which we view the world CB. If your father had truly wanted that end for himself, he would have ensured it by his own hand. It takes strength of character and bravery to stand firm in the face of a losing battle and it sounds like your dad had an abundance of both, as did my own.

PrintSmith wrote: The lens of our own thoughts is the one through which we view the world CB. If your father had truly wanted that end for himself, he would have ensured it by his own hand. It takes strength of character and bravery to stand firm in the face of a losing battle and it sounds like your dad had an abundance of both, as did my own.

In that particular case, he had become like our furry loved ones. He didn't have the faculties anymore to make that decision.

My dad always said he wanted to be taken out and shot if he got dementia like my aunt did. In his case, he lie on the couch and just died at 64. I was glad to see him go so quick and peacefully if it was to happen. Of course, I would much rather him be here. I loved him deeply.

MsMAM wrote:

PrintSmith wrote: The lens of our own thoughts is the one through which we view the world CB. If your father had truly wanted that end for himself, he would have ensured it by his own hand. It takes strength of character and bravery to stand firm in the face of a losing battle and it sounds like your dad had an abundance of both, as did my own.

In that particular case, he had become like our furry loved ones. He didn't have the faculties anymore to make that decision.

I am a child of the Creator Mam, just as the furry ones who live with me are my children. A vet can't take that choice away from me, nor can a human doctor or anyone else take it away from the Creator. The decision is that of the parent, no one else.

MsMAM wrote: My dad always said he wanted to be taken out and shot if he got dementia like my aunt did. In his case, he lie on the couch and just died at 64. I was glad to see him go so quick and peacefully if it was to happen. Of course, I would much rather him be here. I loved him deeply.

Tell me my friend, would you have complied with your father's wishes if what he feared had happened? Would you have taken it upon yourself to conclude that he was of the same mind in that regard while in the midst of living through what he could not in any way anticipate before then? Do you know for certain that someone whose mind appears to us to be gone is experiencing something they would prefer not to live through? We can't read thoughts yet Mam. We don't know if those days are some of their happiest or saddest. All we know is what we can perceive and that knowledge does not include the thoughts inside the head of someone who is suffering from dementia. We can only know what they remain capable of communicating to us. With diminished ability to communicate necessarily comes a diminished ability to know and understand how that person is experiencing their current world.

I know you are a child of the creator, and I hope you know that I certainly do respect you. We are truly friends, and I really like you. I just want to make sure you know that.

I would be so sad to let my dad go, but I *really* believe that he meant what he said. There is no way my dad would have wanted to crumble into the shell of the man that he once was. Yes, I would have for my dad because I loved and respected him so very much. It used to terrify him as dementia ran in his family. I don't know that my mom would have allowed it as she may have wanted to keep him no matter what, and it would be ultimately her decision. Funny, she has told me she wants the same thing. She does not want to be in pain. I would comply with her wishes if it were legal, of course. I do not break the law.

Does that make sense?

The respect that you have for me, and I for you, is never in question my friend, regardless of whether we agree or disagree on any given subject. You and I are like Jefferson and Adams. Our friendship and respect for each other transcends any differences of opinion we may have.

I don't question your father's sincerity when he spoke those words Mam, but I do recognize that he was speaking of something of which he had no knowledge. What he experienced as he watched his sister was influenced by his thoughts, not his sister's thoughts because he could not know what her thoughts were as the dementia progressed. He had no ability to see the world through the lenses of her eyes, her thoughts, only his own. He could not know her thoughts, all he could know was his own sense of losing her as he had formerly known her. That is why I asked the questions I did Mam. What appears on the surface is not to be confused with what lies below the surface, especially when what lies below the surface is hidden from any attempts we may make to see and understand. You don't know that your aunt was not reliving her happiest days when she lost her ability to communicate what she was experiencing. It might have been the saddest days for you and your father, but they might have been the happiest of hers. You have no way of knowing that, nor do I, unless it becomes our fate as well. Only then can we begin to understand what goes on in the mind of someone who has contracted the same condition before us.

Interesting. I read and appreciate the response.

I really didn't mean that assisted suicide is a justified response to dementia. I really meant it more in that daddy likely would have wanted us to relieve his pain if that had happened. My mom has stated to me clearly as well. And frankly I feel the same way. Let me go with my dignity if I don't have the means to do so myself.

Dignity is the result of how we live our lives Mam, not how we die. No manner of death can rob one of the dignity they have earned throughout the course of their lives, nor infuse one with the dignity they lacked in life.