Judge gives first victory to stopping FORCED healthcare

Something the Dog Said wrote: Nor does the health care legislation require one to purchase health insurance, only to possess it if the individual desires the tax credit. One may obtain health insurance from your employer, as well as from a patent if under age 25, or from a spouse.

And where is the choice to not participate at all? Why must I participate in commerce? Why must I be in possession of insurance for my health simply because I draw breath? Why do I not have the freedom to forgo insurance when I am young and healthy, use that money for other purposes (such as building up funds to provide for my golden years) and obtain insurance later in life when it is more likely to be needed?

Look, even the founders realized that there had to be a mechanism, bankruptcy, that allowed one to start fresh after digging themselves too deep of a financial hole to escape from. The ability to have your debts forgiven is essential to maintaining an entrepreneurial atmosphere in which to practice liberty.

PS, I am not advocating repealing Bankruptcy. Financial destruction beyond your control is one thing, acting irresponsibly and ignoring well-known insurable risks is another. Even a 20yr old can be in a bad car accident and require $100K in care. You still didn't answer why student loans and back taxes are exempt from bankruptcy. (And probably other things like child support). Why does your doctor and hospital get the shaft, but not these other obligations?

PrintSmith wrote:

Something the Dog Said wrote: Nor does the health care legislation require one to purchase health insurance, only to possess it if the individual desires the tax credit. One may obtain health insurance from your employer, as well as from a patent if under age 25, or from a spouse.

And where is the choice to not participate at all? Why must I participate in commerce? Why must I be in possession of insurance for my health simply because I draw breath? Why do I not have the freedom to forgo insurance when I am young and healthy, use that money for other purposes (such as building up funds to provide for my golden years) and obtain insurance later in life when it is more likely to be needed?

You have the choice not to participate. You can simply choose not to have health insurance. You will not receive the tax credit, but you certainly have that option.

It isn't a tax credit, it's a tax assessment from the head of an administration that said he wouldn't raise taxes, not one dime, on those making less than $250K a year. Not only has he broken that promise, he has shattered it and in the process shown that he never had any intention of honoring the promise he made while on the campaign trail seeking to be elected.

Keep your current insurance? Not even close if this obomanation isn't rightfully tossed out as unconstitutional. Will keep insurance affordable? Won't add to the deficit? Not according to the CBO.

First step towards single payer? What was originally called a distortion of the truth is now simply fact as one looks at the platform of the progressives seeking election in the fall across the nation. Both progressive hopefuls in the Senate primary in this state have publicly come out and said they would actively pursue that end if we are foolish enough to send them to Washington in the fall elections.

Missouri just sent a very clear message to Washington D.C. by voting 75% in favor of repealing this liberty stealing legislation. A recent poll showed 84% of the voting population believes the nation is on the wrong course and 67% of the political class felt it was on the correct one. 16% of the people agree with 67% of the political class and only 33% of the political class agree with 84% of the people. If this doesn't show just how out of touch this current cabal is, I'm not sure what else could convince you. If this doesn't show you just how close we are to losing our liberty to the tyranny of our government, you really are not paying attention.

A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 67% of Political Class voters believe the United States is generally heading in the right direction. However, things look a lot different to Mainstream Americans. Among these voters, 84% say the country has gotten off on the wrong track.

Twenty-four percent (24%) of Mainstream voters consider fiscal policy issues such as taxes and government spending to be the most important issue facing the nation today. Just two percent (2%) of Political Class voters agree.

With a gap that wide, it’s not surprising that 68% of voters believe the Political Class doesn’t care what most Americans think. Fifty-nine percent (59%) are embarrassed by the behavior of the Political Class.

Just 23% believe the federal government today has the consent of the governed.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... _disagrees

I'm not a fan by any means of the health care bill, but I don't see how it can be found to be unconstitutional.

The government can already tax or give credits to select groups of people. Have a child, get a credit. Do some government favored energy saving fix on your home and get a credit. Low income people get to be in a lower tax bracket than higher income people.

It might not quite be exactly the same as being "required" to get health insurance, but it seems pretty similar to me.

Pine, It is a little different than a simple credit. If you are single and over $40K, you get no credit and pay 100% of the cost. You are going to have to file a new IRS form, stating which qualified health insurance policy you have. The HHS is going to define 4 qualified health care plans, and you pick one. It is heavy handed government. I don't mind them giving tax credits and subsidies, but leave the choice to me what insurance to buy. If I research Colorado plans on Ehealthinsurance.com I can currently find 100s of plans with deductables from $250 to $10,000 with a variety of coverages to choose from. That is what I want, free consumer choice, not government mandate. Tax incentives for buying a plan, but not a mandated qualified plan. If the gov't wants to research and put is seal of approval or recommendation on a plan, fine. But don't make it mandatory.

Something the Dog Said wrote:

PrintSmith wrote:

Something the Dog Said wrote: Nor does the health care legislation require one to purchase health insurance, only to possess it if the individual desires the tax credit. One may obtain health insurance from your employer, as well as from a patent if under age 25, or from a spouse.

And where is the choice to not participate at all? Why must I participate in commerce? Why must I be in possession of insurance for my health simply because I draw breath? Why do I not have the freedom to forgo insurance when I am young and healthy, use that money for other purposes (such as building up funds to provide for my golden years) and obtain insurance later in life when it is more likely to be needed?

You have the choice not to participate. You can simply choose not to have health insurance. You will not receive the tax credit, but you certainly have that option.

Why do you keep pointing out the tax credit? Can you show where that is all that happens if you choose not to have the mandated health insurance? From what I read, you will be fined $750 or 2% of your income if you don't take their insurance and make over $30,000. So if that example is correct, and you make $70,000 per year, then you are fined $1400. This starts in 2014 which is convieniently after his election so people won't feel the hurt till he is gone. Is that right? And if so, why do you keep trying to spin this and only talk about some stupid tax credit?

So if you don't pay it they force you to by taking it out of your taxes. So it is forced commerce. Unconstitutional.

I'm not sure we are all clear just how the health care bill will be handled in our taxes.

Here's my guess, but I could be wrong. Please let us know if anyone is clear on this.

I think there are two changes to your taxes. One is a credit to lower income people (under $47K or so if single) to help pay for their insurance. The lower the income, the higher the credit.

The other is a tax penalty for those who fail to get insurance. The one big problem with this is that the bill does not allow the IRS to collect this penalty if you fail to pay it. They cannot attach your wages. But they can withhold it from any refund you may be due.

And for those who don't file taxes, I'm not sure what happens. Are they now forced to file a tax return to get their tax credit even if they don't owe tax? And are they expected to file a return if they don't have insurance so they will have to pay a tax (as if that will ever happen)?

And I agree with PS that it's a crime that you will only be allowed to get government approved health care plans. It doesn't look like they will offer a high deductible plan. Those plans make good sense for people who want to save money and are generally healthy.

Pine, you have it about right. The new doughnut hole is those above about $40K or so, no credit, no deduction, and forced to buy a gov't approved plan. I am keeping my "grandfathered" plan for awhile by the way. Until I need to change it or re-apply then I am F*cked. Thanks!

Joe wrote: Pine, you have it about right. The new doughnut hole is those above about $40K or so, no credit, no deduction, and forced to buy a gov't approved plan. I am keeping my "grandfathered" plan for awhile by the way. Until I need to change it or re-apply then I am F*cked. Thanks!

Yeah, that appears to be one loophole for now. If you don't want to buy insurance, get one of those crappy plans which are pretty worthless (they might pay $50 a day for a hospital), but are really cheap. It might get grandfathered in. Or if you want a good high deductible plan, get it now before it's too late! The problem is, the government is forcing those plans to give better coverage (like covering 26 yr old kids) and the plans may have to be modified, which from my understanding forces you to take one of the government approved plans.

And don't forget if you make over the $40K or so, you not only have to buy a plan, but you must also help subsidize other people's plans. As I recall, that extra amount you must pay would be in the up to $2300-$2700 range (plus the cost of your insurance).

One other thing I'm not sure about is if you'll still be able to deduct the cost of your health insurance, plus the subsidy you pay, if you are self employed. I'm not so sure about that once they require everyone to get insurance.

I'll have to run it again, but on the other board I ran an example of a self employed person making about $47K after job expenses. By they time you pay your income taxes, Social Security/Medicare, and the mandated health insurance plus subsidy, you only have about half of that $47K left, if I recall correctly.