- Posts: 13723
- Thank you received: 151
Do you COEXIST?
16 Mar 2015 22:53 #1
by Rick
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Do you COEXIST? was created by Rick
So, since it's been quiet around here I've been reading a couple other forums. Not in the way of watchable debate... they are either lopsided to one side and/or they are the usual insult fests (acceptable insults vary) with chest beating egos and pure disdain for each other. And now, the reason for this thread; a member of another site started a thread about how MMT was dead... dead because of the change in moderation... for sending the non-productive comments to the ring so it can be continued yet rarely does. I know we're all adults here and have the freedom to say what we want, but is saying whatever anger inducing thing you want really anything other than trying to make the other guy angry?
Think about this for a minute... we come to these forums to either get into a word war, or to sit back and watch one, or both. Why? How old are we? Is this as good as a political forum gets or is something MORE really possible? I don't know... but I do know many of us are hypocrites. We complain about countries not getting along, including our own. We complain about Democrats and Republicans in congress not getting along... yet we can't even be civil about a steel pipe.
So YOU, tell me if it's possible to come to an internet kitchen table and talk with your neighbors as if you were actually face to face. Can you imagine that or are you beyond that internet evolution? Or, maybe you don't talk to people in person anymore and have forgotten how to properly do it? I'm being serious btw. I have heated discussions with the wife of my best friend all the time, but we spend all of our energy trying to clearly illustrate our ideological certainties, instead of trying to make each other angry. So I suppose that makes many of us on the net cowards... that we are much more likely to actively and enthusiastically pee in the other guy's Cherios when we are out of his or her reach. Tell me I'm wrong, I dare ya
I've made my choice, and I don't plan on devolving any further. As a conservative, I want to COEXIST and actually mean it. I will still have strong opinions, but I will still treat you, if not like a friend, at least as a cordial neighbor. I really don't think I need to make someone pissed off at me in order to state my case, and I don't even need to call my neighbors chosen candidates bad names every other sentence... occasionally I will need to slip one out.
So anyway, this is a good and cheap experiment if nothing else. Are the haters right, or is a civil political forum actually possible... or are we too far gone? Maybe if there are some of you out there who look but never post because you have yet to devolve? You are needed and welcome here.
Chance of this thread getting peed on... 50%, but I'm strangely optimistic.
Think about this for a minute... we come to these forums to either get into a word war, or to sit back and watch one, or both. Why? How old are we? Is this as good as a political forum gets or is something MORE really possible? I don't know... but I do know many of us are hypocrites. We complain about countries not getting along, including our own. We complain about Democrats and Republicans in congress not getting along... yet we can't even be civil about a steel pipe.
So YOU, tell me if it's possible to come to an internet kitchen table and talk with your neighbors as if you were actually face to face. Can you imagine that or are you beyond that internet evolution? Or, maybe you don't talk to people in person anymore and have forgotten how to properly do it? I'm being serious btw. I have heated discussions with the wife of my best friend all the time, but we spend all of our energy trying to clearly illustrate our ideological certainties, instead of trying to make each other angry. So I suppose that makes many of us on the net cowards... that we are much more likely to actively and enthusiastically pee in the other guy's Cherios when we are out of his or her reach. Tell me I'm wrong, I dare ya
I've made my choice, and I don't plan on devolving any further. As a conservative, I want to COEXIST and actually mean it. I will still have strong opinions, but I will still treat you, if not like a friend, at least as a cordial neighbor. I really don't think I need to make someone pissed off at me in order to state my case, and I don't even need to call my neighbors chosen candidates bad names every other sentence... occasionally I will need to slip one out.
So anyway, this is a good and cheap experiment if nothing else. Are the haters right, or is a civil political forum actually possible... or are we too far gone? Maybe if there are some of you out there who look but never post because you have yet to devolve? You are needed and welcome here.
Chance of this thread getting peed on... 50%, but I'm strangely optimistic.
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
17 Mar 2015 00:19 #2
by ScienceChic
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Do you COEXIST?
I don't want to jump right in, being as I'm the one responsible for those supposed "moderation changes" 
(which I would say that aren't really changes, just enforcement of what was requested of members from day 1), so I'm not a good one to answer as to whether the moderation changes caused this or not (maybe they did - I'd love to hear your thoughts in another post, as I don't want to derail Rick's topic), but I would like to point out a few things. I saw a decrease in activity long before official notice of moderation action was made, and that was after multiple discussions we've had here about how to moderate of which I took much to heart. I've also noticed that there is a huge decrease in activity in another big area forum, and I strongly suspect it is due to the 60+ local Facebook Groups that have all sprung up in the past 6 months and taken off (there are now at least 4 area garage sale groups, 3 event groups, 3 lost pets groups, and countless "general community groups - one group in Evergreen has well over 3,100 members after only 8 months or so, more than we've gotten after 5 years. BUT, you don't have to be a member to read information here - that eliminates the need to join and decreases our member count, but not our unique visitors which I watch on Google Analytics - unfortunately, y'all can't see that and get a feel for how active this site really is).
That member who made that comment was also basing the "activity" of this site on this one forum, and I, for one, don't come to sites like this just for political commentary. Nor did I before I became owner. I came first for weather and traffic, and fires/floods when they happen, then for scientific-minded discussions and sports. After that it was politics, only because that is an interest of mine. There are people who come here only for pets, or the classifieds. Considering that our unique visitors have only increased, even as activity in this one forum has decreased, I have to come to the conclusion that there are other forums/pages of value on this site for the guests and members alike, and that is why we migrated to this software in the first place - it gave us a kick-ass community calendar, more flexibility in setting up new pages with information of interest, personal and business Profile Pages that have way more functionality that we haven't even begun to touch, etc.
Is this as good as a political forum gets? God, I hope not. I think we have the potential to be a lot more in terms of discussion and ideas, breadth of topics, and diversity in people actively participating in discussions. Will it devolve from time to time? Sure, that's human nature. We get into patterns, ruts, and it's hard to shake that. It's easier to go for the quick jab, rather than a long-term strategy of working the opponent to discover weaknesses in their arguments that can be breached for the win (in this case, changing someone's opinion).
Something that I do know that helps: meeting your virtual sparring partners in real life. It's a lot harder to be mean and nasty when you've had lunch or drinks with that once-anonymous username arguing with your viewpoint. Every time I see archer or LOL or netdude or BlazerBob post, I picture their faces, and hear their voices saying what's written - it humanizes it and makes it a hell of a lot harder to react with a knee-jerk emotional response (or take it personally). I've now had lunch with Resident Troll almost a dozen times, there are hot-button issues we will never agree upon, but we respond to one another on FB with the utmost respect because we've gotten to know one another. If that hadn't happened, it would've been a lot easier to get outraged at his comments because I didn't know where he was coming from. I don't agree with much of it, but it helps in understanding why he said what he said and to break down that which was written/argued, rather than get upset at our differences. This idea of getting together isn't new, and has been brought up here before, it just hasn't materialized. I've kicked around the thought of having a regular, no-pressure, drop in as you like, monthly Sunday happy-hour gathering, but just haven't set it up because Sundays are a rare day off from events and meetings for me and I was loathe to take away that one day I don't have to drive up the hill and not have any free days left, but I do believe this is vitally important to the health of our forums. What do you all think? Would you be game for that? Brooks Place Tavern would love to host us, and we can rotate around to support other businesses. We've met for lunches before and they've been a blast!
As always, I love and enthusiastically welcome feedback on how this site is run . More importantly here, I want to see what you all think of Rick's questions, not turn this into another discussion on moderation (we can do that in the Letters to the Editors topic). Thank you for posting this Rick, I appreciate it!
(which I would say that aren't really changes, just enforcement of what was requested of members from day 1), so I'm not a good one to answer as to whether the moderation changes caused this or not (maybe they did - I'd love to hear your thoughts in another post, as I don't want to derail Rick's topic), but I would like to point out a few things. I saw a decrease in activity long before official notice of moderation action was made, and that was after multiple discussions we've had here about how to moderate of which I took much to heart. I've also noticed that there is a huge decrease in activity in another big area forum, and I strongly suspect it is due to the 60+ local Facebook Groups that have all sprung up in the past 6 months and taken off (there are now at least 4 area garage sale groups, 3 event groups, 3 lost pets groups, and countless "general community groups - one group in Evergreen has well over 3,100 members after only 8 months or so, more than we've gotten after 5 years. BUT, you don't have to be a member to read information here - that eliminates the need to join and decreases our member count, but not our unique visitors which I watch on Google Analytics - unfortunately, y'all can't see that and get a feel for how active this site really is).That member who made that comment was also basing the "activity" of this site on this one forum, and I, for one, don't come to sites like this just for political commentary. Nor did I before I became owner. I came first for weather and traffic, and fires/floods when they happen, then for scientific-minded discussions and sports. After that it was politics, only because that is an interest of mine. There are people who come here only for pets, or the classifieds. Considering that our unique visitors have only increased, even as activity in this one forum has decreased, I have to come to the conclusion that there are other forums/pages of value on this site for the guests and members alike, and that is why we migrated to this software in the first place - it gave us a kick-ass community calendar, more flexibility in setting up new pages with information of interest, personal and business Profile Pages that have way more functionality that we haven't even begun to touch, etc.
Is this as good as a political forum gets? God, I hope not. I think we have the potential to be a lot more in terms of discussion and ideas, breadth of topics, and diversity in people actively participating in discussions. Will it devolve from time to time? Sure, that's human nature. We get into patterns, ruts, and it's hard to shake that. It's easier to go for the quick jab, rather than a long-term strategy of working the opponent to discover weaknesses in their arguments that can be breached for the win (in this case, changing someone's opinion).
Something that I do know that helps: meeting your virtual sparring partners in real life. It's a lot harder to be mean and nasty when you've had lunch or drinks with that once-anonymous username arguing with your viewpoint. Every time I see archer or LOL or netdude or BlazerBob post, I picture their faces, and hear their voices saying what's written - it humanizes it and makes it a hell of a lot harder to react with a knee-jerk emotional response (or take it personally). I've now had lunch with Resident Troll almost a dozen times, there are hot-button issues we will never agree upon, but we respond to one another on FB with the utmost respect because we've gotten to know one another. If that hadn't happened, it would've been a lot easier to get outraged at his comments because I didn't know where he was coming from. I don't agree with much of it, but it helps in understanding why he said what he said and to break down that which was written/argued, rather than get upset at our differences. This idea of getting together isn't new, and has been brought up here before, it just hasn't materialized. I've kicked around the thought of having a regular, no-pressure, drop in as you like, monthly Sunday happy-hour gathering, but just haven't set it up because Sundays are a rare day off from events and meetings for me and I was loathe to take away that one day I don't have to drive up the hill and not have any free days left, but I do believe this is vitally important to the health of our forums. What do you all think? Would you be game for that? Brooks Place Tavern would love to host us, and we can rotate around to support other businesses. We've met for lunches before and they've been a blast!
As always, I love and enthusiastically welcome feedback on how this site is run . More importantly here, I want to see what you all think of Rick's questions, not turn this into another discussion on moderation (we can do that in the Letters to the Editors topic). Thank you for posting this Rick, I appreciate it!
Rick wrote: Maybe if there are some of you out there who look but never post because you have yet to devolve? You are needed and welcome here.
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
17 Mar 2015 07:06 #3
by cydl
Replied by cydl on topic Do you COEXIST?
I don't think the moderation has anything to do with it. I can tell you from personal experience that I just got fed up with a handful of folks who constantly wanted to launch ad hominem attacks rather than truly discuss anything. I quit posting/visiting for quite a while. The worst of that seems to be gone now and it appears that a couple of the most toxic trolls have left - maybe found greener pastures to troll. <G>
Having said that, I'm sure that from time to time I've posted something that gets someone's panties in a wad but I try to be very careful that what I write is not a personal attack. If someone has construed something I've written as a personal attack I truly apologize; that is certainly not my intent. There are many good and interesting folks here and I enjoy the discussions.
FWIW I have a story. Feel free to ignore if you want!
I grew up in a small town and we had party line phones. For those of you who don't remember those, a number of folks in the neighborhood shared a line. If you picked up the phone to make a call you first had to listen to make sure someone else wasn't talking. It also led to a lot of eavesdropping and fueled neighborhood gossip.
When the TV show 'Peyton Place' was the big hit most of the 'hood would be on the party line after the show discussing all the scandal in that night's episode..."Can you believe Old Man Peyton said that to her??!!! The nerve!!!!" LOLOL! And someone folks on the line would always take the other side of the plot and there would be a hearty and sometimes heated debate. Sometimes they spilled over into a curt head nod and a "Harumph" at the grocery store.
I see forums as a bit of the old party line concept. The disadvantage in forums is that writing can be a lot less precise and be open to a lot more misinterpretation than voice inflection. No matter how many times I proofread/tweak a post (and I generally spend some time doing that prior to hitting that submit button) I'll see something and think "jeez, I could've written that a bit less ambiguously!" I'm certainly guilty of that one very recently!
As far as calling candidates names, well now Rick, that's an American Tradition dating back to the revolution! If you can't call politicians names without offending someone we have certainly devolved past the point of no return!
Having said that, I'm sure that from time to time I've posted something that gets someone's panties in a wad but I try to be very careful that what I write is not a personal attack. If someone has construed something I've written as a personal attack I truly apologize; that is certainly not my intent. There are many good and interesting folks here and I enjoy the discussions.
FWIW I have a story. Feel free to ignore if you want!
I grew up in a small town and we had party line phones. For those of you who don't remember those, a number of folks in the neighborhood shared a line. If you picked up the phone to make a call you first had to listen to make sure someone else wasn't talking. It also led to a lot of eavesdropping and fueled neighborhood gossip.
When the TV show 'Peyton Place' was the big hit most of the 'hood would be on the party line after the show discussing all the scandal in that night's episode..."Can you believe Old Man Peyton said that to her??!!! The nerve!!!!" LOLOL! And someone folks on the line would always take the other side of the plot and there would be a hearty and sometimes heated debate. Sometimes they spilled over into a curt head nod and a "Harumph" at the grocery store.
I see forums as a bit of the old party line concept. The disadvantage in forums is that writing can be a lot less precise and be open to a lot more misinterpretation than voice inflection. No matter how many times I proofread/tweak a post (and I generally spend some time doing that prior to hitting that submit button) I'll see something and think "jeez, I could've written that a bit less ambiguously!" I'm certainly guilty of that one very recently!
As far as calling candidates names, well now Rick, that's an American Tradition dating back to the revolution! If you can't call politicians names without offending someone we have certainly devolved past the point of no return!
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
17 Mar 2015 09:10 - 17 Mar 2015 09:31 #5
by Rick
Edit to add, good party line story BTW, I remember those days all too well when back in the 70s when I lived on Shadow Mtn., my friend and I would listen in on calls now and then because we were bored and arnry little kids.
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Replied by Rick on topic Do you COEXIST?
Well said, and as far as calling politicians names, you're right, that is America and often deserved. But calling politicians, parties, ideologies names shouldn't be a substitute for reasoned debate which often seems to happen. I'm scared for my children's futures and this is really the only reason I care to discuss this stuff. I'm not as interested in people telling me why I'm right as I am them telling me why I'm wrong, and why I shouldn't be worried about the direction I believe we are heading. It's as simple as that... but when I'm called a teabagger or some other term that serves no purpose other than to make me angry, it's hard for me to listen and understand the POINT OF VIEW because it is tainted by the insult. I've tried for years to find a place to discuss events and ideas where I can log on happy and log off feeling something other disdain for another human, and I've not given up yet.cydl wrote: I don't think the moderation has anything to do with it. I can tell you from personal experience that I just got fed up with a handful of folks who constantly wanted to launch ad hominem attacks rather than truly discuss anything. I quit posting/visiting for quite a while. The worst of that seems to be gone now and it appears that a couple of the most toxic trolls have left - maybe found greener pastures to troll. <G>
Having said that, I'm sure that from time to time I've posted something that gets someone's panties in a wad but I try to be very careful that what I write is not a personal attack. If someone has construed something I've written as a personal attack I truly apologize; that is certainly not my intent. There are many good and interesting folks here and I enjoy the discussions.
FWIW I have a story. Feel free to ignore if you want!
I grew up in a small town and we had party line phones. For those of you who don't remember those, a number of folks in the neighborhood shared a line. If you picked up the phone to make a call you first had to listen to make sure someone else wasn't talking. It also led to a lot of eavesdropping and fueled neighborhood gossip.
When the TV show 'Peyton Place' was the big hit most of the 'hood would be on the party line after the show discussing all the scandal in that night's episode..."Can you believe Old Man Peyton said that to her??!!! The nerve!!!!" LOLOL! And someone folks on the line would always take the other side of the plot and there would be a hearty and sometimes heated debate. Sometimes they spilled over into a curt head nod and a "Harumph" at the grocery store.
I see forums as a bit of the old party line concept. The disadvantage in forums is that writing can be a lot less precise and be open to a lot more misinterpretation than voice inflection. No matter how many times I proofread/tweak a post (and I generally spend some time doing that prior to hitting that submit button) I'll see something and think "jeez, I could've written that a bit less ambiguously!" I'm certainly guilty of that one very recently!
As far as calling candidates names, well now Rick, that's an American Tradition dating back to the revolution! If you can't call politicians names without offending someone we have certainly devolved past the point of no return!
Edit to add, good party line story BTW, I remember those days all too well when back in the 70s when I lived on Shadow Mtn., my friend and I would listen in on calls now and then because we were bored and arnry little kids.
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
17 Mar 2015 09:28 #6
by Rick
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Replied by Rick on topic Do you COEXIST?
I like your idea Sharon, and even though I've resisted the urge in the past, it is time I put a face to the words. Sundays can be tough for me because I've been calling that family day for a few years now and it's rare to have spare time then, but I will look for other opportunities as they are presented. Maybe I'll start with that lunch I once promised and never attempted, or I'll just drop in on you and say hi for startersScienceChic wrote: I don't want to jump right in, being as I'm the one responsible for those supposed "moderation changes"
That member who made that comment was also basing the "activity" of this site on this one forum, and I, for one, don't come to sites like this just for political commentary. Nor did I before I became owner. I came first for weather and traffic, and fires/floods when they happen, then for scientific-minded discussions and sports. After that it was politics, only because that is an interest of mine. There are people who come here only for pets, or the classifieds. Considering that our unique visitors have only increased, even as activity in this one forum has decreased, I have to come to the conclusion that there are other forums/pages of value on this site for the guests and members alike, and that is why we migrated to this software in the first place - it gave us a kick-ass community calendar, more flexibility in setting up new pages with information of interest, personal and business Profile Pages that have way more functionality that we haven't even begun to touch, etc.
Is this as good as a political forum gets? God, I hope not. I think we have the potential to be a lot more in terms of discussion and ideas, breadth of topics, and diversity in people actively participating in discussions. Will it devolve from time to time? Sure, that's human nature. We get into patterns, ruts, and it's hard to shake that. It's easier to go for the quick jab, rather than a long-term strategy of working the opponent to discover weaknesses in their arguments that can be breached for the win (in this case, changing someone's opinion).
Something that I do know that helps: meeting your virtual sparring partners in real life. It's a lot harder to be mean and nasty when you've had lunch or drinks with that once-anonymous username arguing with your viewpoint. Every time I see archer or LOL or netdude or BlazerBob post, I picture their faces, and hear their voices saying what's written - it humanizes it and makes it a hell of a lot harder to react with a knee-jerk emotional response (or take it personally). I've now had lunch with Resident Troll almost a dozen times, there are hot-button issues we will never agree upon, but we respond to one another on FB with the utmost respect because we've gotten to know one another. If that hadn't happened, it would've been a lot easier to get outraged at his comments because I didn't know where he was coming from. I don't agree with much of it, but it helps in understanding why he said what he said and to break down that which was written/argued, rather than get upset at our differences. This idea of getting together isn't new, and has been brought up here before, it just hasn't materialized. I've kicked around the thought of having a regular, no-pressure, drop in as you like, monthly Sunday happy-hour gathering, but just haven't set it up because Sundays are a rare day off from events and meetings for me and I was loathe to take away that one day I don't have to drive up the hill and not have any free days left, but I do believe this is vitally important to the health of our forums. What do you all think? Would you be game for that? Brooks Place Tavern would love to host us, and we can rotate around to support other businesses. We've met for lunches before and they've been a blast!
As always, I love and enthusiastically welcome feedback on how this site is run . More importantly here, I want to see what you all think of Rick's questions, not turn this into another discussion on moderation (we can do that in the Letters to the Editors topic). Thank you for posting this Rick, I appreciate it!
Rick wrote: Maybe if there are some of you out there who look but never post because you have yet to devolve? You are needed and welcome here.
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
17 Mar 2015 14:02 #8
by Rick
But seriously, if Sundays work best for others, don't try to accommodate me, I'll find a way eventually.
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Replied by Rick on topic Do you COEXIST?
Some Saturdays might work, but I have two kids in sports and Saturdays are usually game days. I would meet you in Lakewood for lunch sometime though if you're able... on meScienceChic wrote: How about a Saturday instead? I sometimes have events on those days, but can work around it if we start with once a month.
I don't have my office in Conifer anymore, working from home again, but I'm up the mountain almost every day.
But seriously, if Sundays work best for others, don't try to accommodate me, I'll find a way eventually. It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
17 Mar 2015 15:26 #9
by PrintSmith
Replied by PrintSmith on topic Do you COEXIST?
As one who isn't all atwitter, and whose face looks more like a road map than a book, the community websites remain my preferred, and only, venue for keeping up with what is happening in my area. I may be in the minority in that regard, but I don't see it changing anytime soon.
It's nice to be able to see some of the twitter traffic at the bottom of the homepage so that I can follow along without actually having a twitter account. Any chances the same could be done for the MMT FB page? I think having this site be a one stop shop as it were for all it would be helpful.
As for coexisting I'd consider my attitude more one of grudging tolerance of what I view as opposing opinions. One's political outlook is but a portion of the entire person. I've known many, including some in my own family, that are good people at heart, good people to have around in bad times and in good, whose heads are nonetheless filled with foolish political notions. I simply try my best to overlook that shortcoming and focus on other positive attributes that they possess.
It's nice to be able to see some of the twitter traffic at the bottom of the homepage so that I can follow along without actually having a twitter account. Any chances the same could be done for the MMT FB page? I think having this site be a one stop shop as it were for all it would be helpful.
As for coexisting I'd consider my attitude more one of grudging tolerance of what I view as opposing opinions. One's political outlook is but a portion of the entire person. I've known many, including some in my own family, that are good people at heart, good people to have around in bad times and in good, whose heads are nonetheless filled with foolish political notions. I simply try my best to overlook that shortcoming and focus on other positive attributes that they possess.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Time to create page: 0.150 seconds
sponsors
