DECLARATON of natl. emergency is dead in the water (legally)

The border is what 2,000 miles long, the 5.9 billion dollars was to cover about 200 miles and yes, there is existing fencing in place in some location - which has not deterred the drug smugglers or criminals - they either tunnel underneath or hide out in/hide their product in vehicles crossing at the border points.

I'm sorry, I'm not finding a correlation between a border wall at the Mexican border and an ebola outbreak. the latter is certainly a legitimate emergency - which I would like to think congress would be rational enough to address.... though you never know.....I really have very little faith in our congress. Even if some of them DO have good intentions they all seem way more interested in making sure they get re-elected than in upholding their campaign promises. While I have suspicions about Pres.Trump's motives, I definitely have to give him some credit for trying to follow through on his campaign promise to his constituents. Agree with his politics or not - most of them say what ever they hell gets them elected and then do what ever they want later.

[strike]parkcobound wrote: The border is what 2,000 miles long, the 5.9 billion dollars was to cover about 200 miles and yes, there is existing fencing in place in some location - which has not deterred the drug smugglers or criminals - they either tunnel underneath or hide out in/hide their product in vehicles crossing at the border points.

I dare say that it would take a lot of tunnels and vehicle hidey holes to move four hundred thousand people.

According to the latest statistics from US Customs and Border Protection (CBP), 396,579 undocumented people were apprehended after entering the country illegally in 2018.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/25/...lysis-trump-migrants

Some of the other "national emergencies" were much smaller than a border wall. Defense of the border is outlined in the Constitution. We have 20 million illegal aliens in a country of 300 million. Sounds like the border has not been controlled well enough.

www.npr.org/2018/06/22/622246815/unautho...tion-in-three-graphs
"The total number of people apprehended for illegally crossing the southern U.S. border has been steadily falling for almost two decades. It's a long-term trend that sociologists, economists and federal officials have been tracking for years."

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/12/03...gration-from-mexico/
"The number of Mexican immigrants living in the U.S. illegally has declined by more than 1 million since 2007. In 2016, 5.4 million unauthorized immigrants from Mexico lived in the U.S., down from a peak of 6.9 million in 2007. Despite the drop, Mexicans still make up about half of the nation’s 10.7 million unauthorized immigrants (51% in 2016)."

www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
"How many immigrants are living in the U.S. illegally?
There were 12 million immigrants living in the country illegally as of January 2015, according to the most recent estimate from the Department of Homeland Security. The estimates from two independent groups are similar: The Pew Research Center estimates the number at 10.7 million in 2016, and the Center for Migration Studies says there were 10.8 million people in 2016 living in the U.S. illegally.

That would be about 3.3 percent to 3.7 percent of the total U.S. population in 2016 or 2015.

All three groups use Census Bureau data on the foreign-born or noncitizens and adjust to subtract the legal immigrant population.

DHS estimated that the growth of the illegal immigrant population had slowed considerably, saying the population increased by 470,000 per year from 2000 to 2007, but only by 70,000 per year from 2010 to 2015."

www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publicat..._pops-est-report.pdf
"In summary, DHS estimates that 12.0 million illegal aliens
were living in the United States in January 2015, compared to
11.5 million in January 2014 and 11.6 million in January
2010.3 On average, the population grew by 70,000 per year
from 2010 to 2015, compared to 470,000 per year during the
high-growth years leading up to the Great Recession (2000-
2007). Of the total illegal alien population in 2015, nearly
80 percent had resided within the United States for more than
10 years and six percent entered during the previous five years
(2010 to 2014). About 55 percent of illegal aliens in 2015
were from Mexico." THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY 2018 REPORT ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

I am not denying that there is a problem at the Southern border, I do not believe it is a national emergency when even our own government agencies are indicating that the numbers are down. Regardless of the numbers, I am certainly MORE concerned with drugs and/or criminals coming in that people fleeing the awful living conditions of their own country... but I do understand that the US cannot support everyone from all of the countries that have poor living conditions. That being said I still do not believe that any kind of wall is going to stop people coming in.

Our country has a ton of problems, and we all know that they exist, infrastructure, homelessness, crime, drugs, etc.

Case 1: The drug dealers/peddlers: these people continually come up with more inventive ways to move product into the US... and there is no limit to the buyers here. the only way you're going to stop that is to A. shoot all drug dealers on site and B.stop the use of drugs in the US. Or C. eradicate all drugs on the planet. Obviously none of these things are going to happen, wall or no wall.

Case 2: Illegal immigration: if any of you have kids, I want you to imagine for a minute what it must take to send your child to another country simply for the purpose of having a better life. You can't go, maybe all of the kids in the family travel with one adult family member. But just try to imagine how awful things really must be for people to be so desperate that they will send their child off to maybe never see them again, so that they can have a better life. Again, certainly we can not support all of these people here. My point is that if these people are so desperate that they will resort to that type of thing, they will find a way in. you build 200 miles of wall they will go around, go under, travel way out of the way - next thing you know we have to build another 200 miles because they've found a new way in - then they will look for another way.

I do understand the purpose of the wall, but I firmly believe that it is not going to stop anything. I suppose if you were able to build the Berlin wall all along the border and then staff it full time with military that will shoot on site - like the Berlin wall - you might stop the bulk of it. But life always finds a way. and if you're desperate enough to keep looking for a better life, no wall is going to hold them all back.

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article...bout-national-emerg/

Let us deal in facts....NOT fallacies.

Emergency/ e smurgancy. Wall/ barrier. Potato/pototo. IOW, IMO just shiny objects to distract form the underlying issues.

IMO saying that x years ago 5y people entered the country illegally and now it is only 1y so the trend down is not a valid reason for not having a wall. . As long as 1y is greater than zero that it not is reason for not having a wall it is a
reason for having a wall.
It is like arguing that since back robberies still happen what is the point of bank vaults, guards and alarms.

Much of the world exists in conditions that make us the envy of the world. There are legal ways to escape those conditions and enter legally. Since there are problems with those systems it makes more sense to reform them than say we will leave the door open so if you think you qualify just walk right in and help yourself.

Edit: As an aside some years ago there were immigration threads on this very site when there were many more passionate posters on both sides. As I recall there was almost universal agreement between the extremists on both sides. It was unique in that the rank and file of the right and left agreed on the need for controlled immigration and were opposed by the right and left of the political class.

Fred, I regret I was not a part if the earlier discussion, and again I am not saying that reforms are not needed. My specific point is that if numbers are down what constitutes an emergency. Address the issue certainly, but lets find solutions....actual solutions and not just throw a bunch of money at hoping it works. We have very real issues in this country that needs serious attention, border security is only one if those problems.

Personally I am not a fan of the emergency declaration. Congress allocated the money to specific parts of the budget and for decades Presidents have been moving it around. So President Trump is not the first to do this. I have seen Colorado governors do it too. This might be a great time for a bipartisan group of legislators to strip a few more powers from the executive branch. I am guessing they will find a judge to shoot down Donald's move, the state of California is already threatening to sue.

But on the border wall itself, just because it is trending down now is no reason to not strengthen the border barriers. It really is only barbed wire in spots, as neglected as my own ranch's fencing. The world economy is due for a dip, and that might encourage more Central Americans to stream north. Illegal aliens cost billion in benefits, money that could instead be spent on our own poor.

Fred I will certainly agree with some reform in the way funds are being allocated, and as I have said before, I totally agree that the US cannot support everyone who wants to come here. Personally I would like to see some non government funded think tank do an in depth study...rapidly, on cause and effect of various solutions. Bipartisan work would be great but I don't see that happening, congress can't agree on anything it seems. The Bill Gates and Uncle Wardens Warrens seem to be willing to spend to solve problems...id like to see some folks like that put together some possible solutions.. Maybe have the people vote on different scenarios... Not sure what the fix is, but what has been done/not done by congress for many years now is not effective