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Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
- lionshead2010
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22 Jan 2011 02:54 #51
by lionshead2010
Replied by lionshead2010 on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
A pleasant change. Politics that may actually benefit us by making us take a deep breath and think about what we are doing to our military's readiness with social engineering and political correctness. Perhaps, like the repeal of DADT, we can go into this slowly and cautiously.
Politics likely to keep women out of combat units
Despite a new report recommending that women be allowed to serve in combat units, supporters of the idea said they don’t expect it to happen this year.
The problem comes from both the Pentagon, where defense officials say the issue isn’t a top priority, and Capitol Hill, where conservative House lawmakers who unsuccessfully tried to block the “don’t ask, don’t tell” repeal last year will be loath to allow another major cultural shift for front-line fighters.
But Pentagon officials have not yet put the same emphasis on allowing women in combat units, and their public support would be critical to overcome lawmakers’ opposition or apathy.
For now, Congress has barely acknowledged the topic. Officials from the House Armed Services Committee said they are waiting for the Pentagon reports before any response, and their Senate counterparts have not taken a public stance on the issue.
As an alternative, she plans to push legislation allowing female troops to include their unofficial combat experience in their official military records, which would help with promotion and career advancement. While medals for battlefield valor are reflected in those files, other combat experience is not.
http://www.stripes.com/news/politics-li ... s-1.132403
So if this is really a push to get a handful of women promoted to flag, general or senior NCO rank...the last paragraph and some adjustments to promotion board policy makes a heck of a lot more sense. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater or easy does it.
Politics likely to keep women out of combat units
Despite a new report recommending that women be allowed to serve in combat units, supporters of the idea said they don’t expect it to happen this year.
The problem comes from both the Pentagon, where defense officials say the issue isn’t a top priority, and Capitol Hill, where conservative House lawmakers who unsuccessfully tried to block the “don’t ask, don’t tell” repeal last year will be loath to allow another major cultural shift for front-line fighters.
But Pentagon officials have not yet put the same emphasis on allowing women in combat units, and their public support would be critical to overcome lawmakers’ opposition or apathy.
For now, Congress has barely acknowledged the topic. Officials from the House Armed Services Committee said they are waiting for the Pentagon reports before any response, and their Senate counterparts have not taken a public stance on the issue.
As an alternative, she plans to push legislation allowing female troops to include their unofficial combat experience in their official military records, which would help with promotion and career advancement. While medals for battlefield valor are reflected in those files, other combat experience is not.
http://www.stripes.com/news/politics-li ... s-1.132403
So if this is really a push to get a handful of women promoted to flag, general or senior NCO rank...the last paragraph and some adjustments to promotion board policy makes a heck of a lot more sense. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater or easy does it.
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- ScienceChic
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27 Nov 2012 13:44 #52
by ScienceChic
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
The ACLU is now suing the Defense Dept for barring women from ground combat positions. Read more here:
Hegar, et al. v. Panetta
Major Hegar's blog post about this suit:
Women Warriors Are On the Battlefield. Eliminate the Outdated, Unfair Military Combat Exclusion Policy
By Major Mary Jennings Hegar, US Air National Guard
11/27/2012
Major Hegar's blog post about this suit:
Women Warriors Are On the Battlefield. Eliminate the Outdated, Unfair Military Combat Exclusion Policy
By Major Mary Jennings Hegar, US Air National Guard
11/27/2012
If there is one thing I’ve learned about the differences between us all throughout my years of service, it’s this: putting the right person in the right job has very little to do with one’s gender, race, religion, or other demographic descriptor. It has everything to do with one’s heart, character, ability, determination and dedication.
That’s the problem with the military’s combat exclusion policy. It makes it that much harder for people to see someone’s abilities, and instead reinforces stereotypes about gender.
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
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- FredHayek
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27 Nov 2012 14:19 #53
by FredHayek
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
Replied by FredHayek on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
Interesting topic. Some people believe women aren't tough enough for combat, but I think a certain percentage could tough it out. During WWII, American men coming out of the Great Depression were much smaller and undernourished than many women these days.
I would support women being allowed to volunteer for combat roles. After seeing how even the strongest physical men are unable to handle mentally modern combat, I don't think women would be much different.
And in the modern era of asymetrical warfare, with no rear echelon, it would be prudent to prepare women in war zones to fight.
One more point, keeping women out of combat is sexist, a belief that men should shield the fairer sex, not serve shoulder to shoulder with them.
I would support women being allowed to volunteer for combat roles. After seeing how even the strongest physical men are unable to handle mentally modern combat, I don't think women would be much different.
And in the modern era of asymetrical warfare, with no rear echelon, it would be prudent to prepare women in war zones to fight.
One more point, keeping women out of combat is sexist, a belief that men should shield the fairer sex, not serve shoulder to shoulder with them.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
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- FredHayek
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27 Nov 2012 14:35 #54
by FredHayek
Mistreating our captured female prisoners might actually inspire our soldiers to fight that much harder.
Ever read or see the Thin Red Line? Where GI's risk their own lives to try to prevent an American male from suffering any more than he has to. I don't think there would be much difference if it was a man or a woman.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
Replied by FredHayek on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
Nmysys wrote: Have you also taken into account the effect on the male counterparts related to the male instinct to protect the female of the species. Imagine a male soldier having to endure the humiliating screams of a woman soldier being raped or tortured. Can you imagine what that could mean pertaining to security and/or psyche? Might it endanger more troops? How about the propaganda effect?
No one is denying that women should be allowed to compete equally with men. It is not gender bias, but there are other factors to be considered regarding combat besides the equality issues.
Mistreating our captured female prisoners might actually inspire our soldiers to fight that much harder.Ever read or see the Thin Red Line? Where GI's risk their own lives to try to prevent an American male from suffering any more than he has to. I don't think there would be much difference if it was a man or a woman.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
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- Rick
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27 Nov 2012 14:50 #55
by Rick
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Replied by Rick on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
As long as a woman can complete the exact same training as men, they should be allowed and encouraged to fight like men. But if the bar has to be lowered, all bets are off.
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
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- Something the Dog Said
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27 Nov 2012 15:14 #56
by Something the Dog Said
"Remember to always be yourself. Unless you can be batman. Then always be batman." Unknown
Replied by Something the Dog Said on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
Women are already fighting and dying in combat. Why keep up the farce that they are not? Let's train them to be the best warriors that they can be and turn them loose.
Lt. Dawn Halfaker was barred from serving alongside men in ground combat when she went to Iraq in 2004 as commander of a military police platoon. But that didn't keep her out of the fighting.
Halfaker: "I was on the front lines every day for five months."
Martin: "You were busting down doors?"
Halfaker: "Literally yes. We were literally busting down doors."
Martin: "You were doing all of the combat operations of an infantryman, it sounds like."
Halfaker: "We were operating side by side with the infantry ... we used a lot of the same weapons. We did a lot of the same missions."
Halfaker's platoon, which had three other women in it, ran over 100 combat missions.
"I had 33 people's lives in my hands and I never once doubted sending a female on a mission, or giving them a certain set of responsibilities," said Halfaker.
That included loaning her best machine gunner to a special operations unit.
"Every time they would request a specific gunner and it was always a female to man the .50 cal," said Halfaker.
That gunner was Spc. Victoria Rivers.
"It was just kind of euphoric, working side by side with some special forces team. It was pretty cool," said Rivers.
"She was just top notch," said Halfaker. "Great soldier and it was just funny to see this tiny little female up there manning the .50 cal and just fitting in with the special ops guys."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-5 ... ttlefield/
Lt. Dawn Halfaker was barred from serving alongside men in ground combat when she went to Iraq in 2004 as commander of a military police platoon. But that didn't keep her out of the fighting.
Halfaker: "I was on the front lines every day for five months."
Martin: "You were busting down doors?"
Halfaker: "Literally yes. We were literally busting down doors."
Martin: "You were doing all of the combat operations of an infantryman, it sounds like."
Halfaker: "We were operating side by side with the infantry ... we used a lot of the same weapons. We did a lot of the same missions."
Halfaker's platoon, which had three other women in it, ran over 100 combat missions.
"I had 33 people's lives in my hands and I never once doubted sending a female on a mission, or giving them a certain set of responsibilities," said Halfaker.
That included loaning her best machine gunner to a special operations unit.
"Every time they would request a specific gunner and it was always a female to man the .50 cal," said Halfaker.
That gunner was Spc. Victoria Rivers.
"It was just kind of euphoric, working side by side with some special forces team. It was pretty cool," said Rivers.
"She was just top notch," said Halfaker. "Great soldier and it was just funny to see this tiny little female up there manning the .50 cal and just fitting in with the special ops guys."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-5 ... ttlefield/
"Remember to always be yourself. Unless you can be batman. Then always be batman." Unknown
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- FredHayek
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27 Nov 2012 15:25 #57
by FredHayek
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
Replied by FredHayek on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
Wow, Dog is agreeing with me. Note this day. Women are in combat already, even if they are not in combat arms. Might as well let the females who want to volunteer for combat arms do it.
Wasn't there posted here a few months ago that so many male american teens are obese that American officers are concerned about being able to raise enough troops for a major war, add women to the pool of available talent.
Wasn't there posted here a few months ago that so many male american teens are obese that American officers are concerned about being able to raise enough troops for a major war, add women to the pool of available talent.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
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- Rick
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27 Nov 2012 19:05 #58
by Rick
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
Replied by Rick on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
I agree... I also heard that women more easily adapt to artificial limbs so there's that. It's long past due that we treat men and women as if there are no physical differences and let evolution finish the job.FredHayek wrote: Wow, Dog is agreeing with me. Note this day. Women are in combat already, even if they are not in combat arms. Might as well let the females who want to volunteer for combat arms do it.
Wasn't there posted here a few months ago that so many male american teens are obese that American officers are concerned about being able to raise enough troops for a major war, add women to the pool of available talent.
It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy
George Orwell
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- ScienceChic
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24 Jun 2015 02:16 #59
by ScienceChic
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
Interesting to read what's been going on in the past 2 years...
Women in combat units: Final decision due
By Andrew Tilghman, Staff writer
June 21, 2015
Women in combat units: Final decision due
By Andrew Tilghman, Staff writer
June 21, 2015
The Pentagon's highest-ranking officials are preparing to make final decisions about whether to open all combat jobs to female service members.
It's been more than two years since then-Defense Secretary Leon Panetta stunned the military community by announcing plans to change the longstanding rule technically excluding women from serving in combat roles — more than 300,000 jobs in all, many of Army and Marine Corps infantry and armor units.
Now deadlines looming later this year will force the military's top brass to either clear a path to eliminate all gender restrictions, or serve up a good reason why not by requesting a formal waiver to the forcewide policy.
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
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- ScienceChic
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15 Sep 2015 10:20 - 15 Sep 2015 10:22 #60
by ScienceChic
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Replied by ScienceChic on topic Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat
Finally. Equality based on performance, not gender. It's about damn time.
Mabus: Women will be allowed in infantry
Navy Secretary expands on criticism of Marine study on women in combat
By Gretel C. Kovach | 8:32 a.m. Sept. 15, 2015
Edit to add:
Navy SEALs set to open to women, top admiral says
Mabus: Women will be allowed in infantry
Navy Secretary expands on criticism of Marine study on women in combat
By Gretel C. Kovach | 8:32 a.m. Sept. 15, 2015
You can read the complete transcript of his remarks at the link.The Marine Corps infantry, Navy SEALs, and all other combat jobs in the Navy Department will open to women by the end of this year, and no exemptions to the new gender-neutral employment policy in the Defense Department will be granted despite results of a Marine Corps study on women in combat, Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus reiterated during a speech Monday in Cleveland.
Mabus expanded on his earlier remarks criticizing the lengthy Marine Corps experiment that compared all-male combat units to ones that include women.
“This study served a very good purpose. It’s come up with the standards, standards that have something to do with the job. Once you’ve done that I just see no reason to say ‘because the average person, woman, cannot meet these, we’re not giving anybody a chance,’” Mabus said.
“We’re not looking for average. There were women that met this standard, and a lot of the things there that women fell a little short in can be remedied by two things – training and leadership.”
Edit to add:
Navy SEALs set to open to women, top admiral says
"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill
Last edit: 15 Sep 2015 10:22 by ScienceChic.
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