Report: Women should be allowed to serve in combat

16 Sep 2015 08:48 #61 by Rick

ScienceChic wrote: Finally. Equality based on performance, not gender. It's about damn time.

Mabus: Women will be allowed in infantry
Navy Secretary expands on criticism of Marine study on women in combat
By Gretel C. Kovach | 8:32 a.m. Sept. 15, 2015

The Marine Corps infantry, Navy SEALs, and all other combat jobs in the Navy Department will open to women by the end of this year, and no exemptions to the new gender-neutral employment policy in the Defense Department will be granted despite results of a Marine Corps study on women in combat, Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus reiterated during a speech Monday in Cleveland.

Mabus expanded on his earlier remarks criticizing the lengthy Marine Corps experiment that compared all-male combat units to ones that include women.

“This study served a very good purpose. It’s come up with the standards, standards that have something to do with the job. Once you’ve done that I just see no reason to say ‘because the average person, woman, cannot meet these, we’re not giving anybody a chance,’” Mabus said.

“We’re not looking for average. There were women that met this standard, and a lot of the things there that women fell a little short in can be remedied by two things – training and leadership.”

You can read the complete transcript of his remarks at the link.

Edit to add:
Navy SEALs set to open to women, top admiral says

Although probably the wrong time in history if the next administration happens to continue the work of reducing the military in the face of growing terrorist groups plus Russia, NK, Iran, China. But yeah, it's about time. Special forces may be busy and overburdened

It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy

George Orwell

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17 Dec 2015 17:07 #62 by Blazer Bob
www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/12/d...rms-the-military.php

"America takes its sports more seriously than its military. This is the conclusion we can draw from the December announcement by woebegone Defense Secretary Ashton Carter that women will now “be able to serve as Army Rangers and Green Berets, Navy SEALs, Marine Corps infantry, Air Force parajumpers, and everything else that was previously open only to men.” As though the only thing that militates against women serving in the military is baseless sexism."...

..."Why hasn’t the NFL or the NBA or the NHL or the MLB followed the Obama Administration’s brave lead and started fielding women? In 2013, Lauren Silberman tried out as an NFL kicker and lasted just “two pathetic and pitiful” punts before limping off the field. Her best kick made it a whopping 19 yards. There hasn’t been a whole lot of women-in-the-NFL agitation since then. The idea of women joining, say, the Patriots’ defensive lineup, remains so ridiculous that not even the most doe-eyed frappuccino feminist is badgering professional football for women’s right to be trampled underfoot. But does the Secretary of Defense imagine that what happens in war is less violent than being run over by offensive tackle Sebastian Vollmer (6’8”, 320 lbs)?"...

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17 Dec 2015 17:12 #63 by Blazer Bob
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lgYT0puTMns/VnGFWOHXHGI/AAAAAAABtKU/QmWMcYovSi8/

3.bp.blogspot.com/-lgYT0puTMns/VnGFWOHXH...AAABtKU/QmWMcYovSi8/

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15 Jan 2016 21:38 #64 by Blazer Bob
So much for "as long as they can meet the same standards".


www.lifezette.com/polizette/the-perils-o...ed-marine-boot-camp/


"The Many Problems with Coed Marine Boot Camp
Goodbye high standards, hello misconduct
by Jude Eden
On Jan. 1, Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus ordered the Marines to provide plans by Jan. 15 for boot camp to go coed. The decision is so fraught that Mabus is trying to shroud it in silence. ABC.com reports that “Mabus also warned Marine Corps leaders not to use any concerns about integrating women into combat jobs as ways to delay the process.” The problems with integrating boot camp are the same as those of integrating the combat arms, so the Marines are not allowed to talk about it.

Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter used this tactic when, ahead of his Dec. 3 decision to open all combat jobs to women, he put a gag rule on discussing the matter and the Marines’ 9 month integration study which showed that, compared to males in combat tasks, female Marines were slower, couldn’t lift as much weight, were less accurate shooters and retained more than twice the injuries. Now the Marines must comply not only with integration of the combat arms but, suddenly, integration of boot camp, post-haste. Any problems with either will be blamed on leadership and training. That leadership will be purged and purged again until everyone is singing the right tune. If you were interested in what Soviet-style dictatorship looks like, this is it."...

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16 Jan 2016 14:31 #65 by ScienceChic
Interesting write-up. I disagree with many of her assumptions and conclusions, but it remains to be seen if indeed that results of the recruits as a whole do fall when women are integrated into training.

"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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17 Jan 2016 12:09 #66 by Blazer Bob

ScienceChic wrote: Interesting write-up. I disagree with many of her assumptions and conclusions, but it remains to be seen if indeed that results of the recruits as a whole do fall when women are integrated into training.


That is one of her points. We will never see the results if they do not support the PC POV. They will be whitewashed.

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17 Jan 2016 16:17 #67 by ScienceChic
She made that claim, yes, but I don't see where she backed it up with evidence. I took it as an opinion that could be interpreted a couple of different ways. For example, when she says that "ABC.com reports that “Mabus also warned Marine Corps leaders not to use any concerns about integrating women into combat jobs as ways to delay the process.”, it sounded to me as if the order had been implemented and it was time to follow orders - that's what chain of command is for, right? That doesn't sound like "trying to whitewash results, that sounds like making sure orders are carried out. But that's my take on it, I'm sure there's more to the story than this.

In this paragraph:

In the 1999 Congressional Commission on Military Training and Gender-Related Issues, the commission’s chairman, Anita Blair said, “gender-integrated training entails special problems that simply do not arise in gender-separate training. These problems revolve around the difficulties of providing appropriate privacy for both sexes, accommodating fundamental physiological differences, and controlling sexual conduct.”

I don't see an issue brought up about standards being changed, that sounds like logistics and behavior issues.

This sentence to me is absurd and smacks of old-fashioned excuses for why women should be refused equal opportunity:

If there’s one thing that’s primal and unchanging, it’s that men and women are distracted by each other.

Sorry, but I call BS. When there's a job to be done, it gets done if the people working together are professionals and our military training is the best in the world. Granted this woman served and I don't discount her experience, but I think it's her opinion that men and women can't work together professionally; I've read plenty of other contradictory opinions. Similarly, I'd like to see evidence backing up this claim she made:

The repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell has worked to sexualize areas that were once neutral, worsening these negative impacts.


From what I've understood when combat jobs were initially opened up, it was to provide equality for those women who met the standards that weren't going to change. There will always be women who excel and perform better than the average male; they should not be held back or denied the opportunity. Yes, standards should not be lowered just to allow women in, as that would make our forces less effective. I just don't see this woman's cited claims as backing up her assertion that standards will be lowered or results whitewashed as she's made too many dubious claims without evidence.

The study that was originally published was criticized for "the validity of its findings and whether it was engineered to keep women out of combat units" ( New Details Question Validity of Marine Corps Gender-Integration Study ).

Controversial Marine Corps Study On Gender Integration Published In Full
Tom Bowman and Laura Wagner
Updated November 5, 2015

In September, the U.S. Marine Corps released a four-page summary of a yearlong study that found that all-male units were faster, more lethal and able to evacuate casualties in less time than mixed-gender units. The study, which can be viewed in full below, was bashed by critics for being biased.

NPR was able to independently obtain the full 978-page Marine Corps study. Several key findings are below.


"Now, more than ever, the illusions of division threaten our very existence. We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.” -King T'Challa, Black Panther

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it. ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. ~Winston Churchill

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17 Aug 2016 18:38 #68 by Blazer Bob
freebeacon.com/national-security/female-...ops-infantry-course/

"The only woman enrolled to become a Marine Corps infantry officer is no longer a student in the course after failing to complete two conditioning hikes last month.

The Marine Corps’ Training and Education Command confirmed Monday that she was among 33 other officers who have failed to complete the course out of the 97 who began July 6."...

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