Watched Patton

2wlady wrote: Checked several sites for the Hammelburg Raid 1945 and liked this one the best:

http://www.taskforcebaum.de/index1.html

From the site:

the 4th US Armored Division received an strange order from XIIth US Corps, to employ a Task Force to liberate a prisoner of war camp near Hammelburg, about 80 km behind the enemy lines. The so called “Operation Hammelburg” was a secret and controversial operation, which was planned and executed during a running campaign. It was ordered by Patton personally and commanded by Captain Abraham J. Baum between 26 - 28 March of 1945. Captain Baum was given the mission of breaking through the German lines and liberating US-POWs in camp OFLAG XIII-B, near Hammelburg. Officially it was a rescue mission, but the true reasons behind was to liberate Patton's son-in-law, LTC John K. Waters, a POW who had been captured 1943, at the Kasserine Pass in Tunisia.

The attack was scheduled for 30 minutes, but they encountered heavy resistance and lost two tanks. It took hours until Baum's task force could move out in the early morning hours and finally break through the German lines.
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Despite the surprise attack, a company of German combat engineers gave heavy resistance. A bridge was blown and Task Force Baum lost three tanks and a platoon of infantry, which was captured by the Germans. [Task Force Baum searched for another route and was 6 hours behind schedule.]
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Task Force Baum ran into a German ambush....Captain Baum lost four Halftracks and three Jeeps [before reaching Camp Hammelburg]....While loosing [sic] 30 % of men and vehicles, Task Force Baum had reached its destination. [There were too many prisoners, so only some of them could be taken back. Baum let the others either walk back or wait until liberation.
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[Task Force Baum took a long rest] and after a few kilometers ran into a German roadblock, [then one to the North and the only way out was West. They were passing through a German training ground. In another ambush] The first tank was hit by a German Panzerfaust. Then the Germans moved the disabled tank into a orchard and used it against the following American tanks. Three other American Sherman tanks were destroyed in the subsequent engagement.

Some of the Halftracks were abandoned, to have enough fuel for the remaining vehicles. [Because there would be an ongoing fight on the way back, most of the walking wounded and several other POWs, including Col. Goode, the CO of the POWs, began to march back under a flag of truce.
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About 09:00 hours, they opened fire with tank destroyers and mortars on first sign of movement by the Americans. Knowing, there was no way to escape, Captain Baum ordered every man for himself. The fight lasted about 20 minutes before the survivors, who hadn’t escaped into the woods, were lined up as POWs.
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About 09:00 hours, they [Germans]opened fire with tank destroyers and mortars on first sign of movement by the Americans. Knowing, there was no way to escape, Captain Baum ordered every man for himself. The fight lasted about 20 minutes before the survivors, who hadn’t escaped into the woods, were lined up as POWs.
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Captain Baum escaped, but was soon captured by the Germans. He was shot in the leg after trying to continue fighting. He joined LTC Waters [Patton's son-in-law] in the Camp hospital. There they waited until the camp was liberated by the 14th US Armored Division, on 5 April 1945 - just 10 days after the failed liberation by Task Force Baum. Ironically, the failed mission and the injury made sure, that John K. Waters could be liberated sooner. Otherwise he would have been marched off to another camp, further into Germany, with the rest of the POWs. After being back to the 4th US Armored Division, Captain Baum received the Distinguished Service Cross on 10 April 1945.

The mission was a total failure. Out of 314 officers and men, 26 had been killed during the raid. Only a few made it back to the American lines, the rest was taken prisoners by the Germans. The force's 57 vehicles were all destroyed or captured by the Germans. General Patton stated later that he didn't know for sure, that his son-in-law was in Camp Hammelburg. He said, that his goals were to liberated American POWs and to bluff the Germans about the Third Army's direction of attack. In his own war memories General Patton stated later: "I can say this, that throughout the campaign in Europe I know of no error I made except that of failing to send a combat command to take Hammelburg."

BTW, Lt. Col. Waters was shot by a German guard while attempting a truce, taken to Oflag hospital and a week later evacuated to a field hospital after the American lines had moved up.

POW Herndon Inge, Jr.'s account is at:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?21046-The-Hammelburg-Raid-US-Third-Army-TF-1945 [url]

One paragraph:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/shirtz3.html

Patton’s Personal War, The Hammelburg Raid: In March 1945, General George Patton organized a small raiding unit, Task Force Baum, to go 60 miles behind German lines. Its mission? To rescue his son-in-law, Lt. Col. John Knight Waters from a POW camp. Baum’s Task force succeeded in reaching the camp, but Waters is seriously wounded during a battle. On the return trip, superior German forces wipe out the task force. The majority of the 300-man task force are either killed or captured. Baum with two others managed to escape back to US lines. A week later, advancing US forces liberated the POW camp. Both Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower and Gen. Omar N. Bradley reprimanded Patton for the unauthorized raid that resulted in the loss of the task force. Patton claimed at the time that he did not know his son-in-law was at the camp, but a letter written to his wife belied his protested ignorance.

Please note that the above is from a website on how generals use men as cannon fodder to further their careers. Several battles are listed. What is interesting is the reference to a letter Patton wrote his wife that he did know his son-in-law was at the POW camp.

I'm looking for that letter.

Great info, and thanks for putting that up.
My original post was that the movie was really an insight into a greatly flawed character in history . The acting and directing was first rate. G. Scott just was the perfect actor for the part. It meant Memorial Day to me. Necessary sacrifice, bad actors and brave people. War is Hell. We should never forget.

Getting back to war movies:

I could only watch Saving Private Ryan once. It showed how dumb command is. While a soldier whose brothers were killed should be sent home, incurring as many KIAs as in this instance is just another example of how expendable the military thinks their men are. As Falstaff said "Good enough to toss; food for powder, food for powder; they'll fit a pit as well as better [men]." And as Patton's Third Army soldiers said of Blood & Guts Patton, "His guts, our blood."

The Great Raid - This is a made-for-TV movie, but is excellent. It is based on "Ghost Soldiers," a book about the raid to save POWs before the Japanese could kill them as the Americans advanced in the Philippines. I think the book captures the planning and integral part the Philippino Resistance played better than the movie, however. Unlike in Patton's raid, this one, while the Lt. Col. was after a promotion there truly was a very good chance that the POWs would be killed, since they were all ill.

I know this isn't really a "soldier" movie, but I love Mrs. Miniver with Greer Garson. It shows an English family, upper middle-class, and how they cope with war, including the husband going out on a "little" boat for the Dunkirk rescue and the son who joins the RAF. It also includes the bombing raids and how it affects the village the family lives in.

I'll think of more, I know.

maybe I should watch Patton after all, if only to relish in his iniquities.

2wlady wrote: maybe I should watch Patton after all, if only to relish in his iniquities.

It would be worthwhile. IMO. of course. If you do I would love to hear your critique.

You got it!

I don't know that I have ever seen it either. It is hard for me due to hyperness to sit that long, but I can watch movies in shifts too.

I did LOVE enemy below and the Bridge over the River Kwai too.

Thanks, JMC. I'll record it.

MsMAM wrote: I don't know that I have ever seen it either. It is hard for me due to hyperness to sit that long, but I can watch movies in shifts too.

I did LOVE enemy below and the Bridge over the River Kwai too.

Thanks, JMC. I'll record it.

It's 4 hours and best done in pieces , for most of us, gotta love the DVR. River Kwai was great too.

Thanks for the Patton history 2wlady! And while I don't recall any mention of that in the movie, the film did cover many of Patton's other "qwirks", plus the soldier slapping incident. It presented Field Marshall Montgomery as a British version of Patton, very much of an ego maniac. You can still have a great film about imperfect or even villainous people.

I'll watch Bridge on the River Kwai most anytime I catch it too. Many so-called war films are actually antiwar, and this might be one of them. So many lives lost for a bridge. It did show the heroism of the group sent to take out the bridge, but the mission was comprimised by that crazy British commander (a great performance, though, by Alec Guiness).

I also like the antiwar Full Metal Jacket, at least the training camp part of it. More great, crazy characters. The drill sergeant was worth the price of admission.

2wlady wrote: Getting back to war movies:

I could only watch Saving Private Ryan once. It showed how dumb command is. While a soldier whose brothers were killed should be sent home, incurring as many KIAs as in this instance is just another example of how expendable the military thinks their men are.

It was a movie.

"Although proposed after the death of the five Sullivan Brothers, no "Sullivan Act" was ever enacted by Congress related to family members serving together. Similarly, no President has ever issued any executive order forbidding assignment of family members to the same ship/unit."

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq72-5.htm

also


"Question: Can "Only Sons" go to war?
Answer: There is an old legend that claims, if all of the male children of a family are in service and all but one of them dies in service regardless of cause, the survivor will either A) Be transferred out of the war zone to "safe" duties in the United States; or The sole survivor will be granted an immediate compassionate discharge because he is "the last of his line."
Not quite. "................

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorder ... aqsole.htm

Neptune, sure it was only a movie. But if you look at one of the URLs I posted, the guy lists several instances of blatant commander egotism at the expense of the grunts, etc.

I do know that after Pearl Harbor, the military did make an effort to assign brothers to different ships and units.

PITG: Montgomery - Yeah, he was another nut. He wanted Market Garden and Eisenhower gave it to him. How many times did everything have to go like clockwork to succeed, only to have the clockwork foul up and end up with a fiasco?

Re River Kwai: The British officer played by Alec Guinness was NOT the screw up portrayed in the movie. Again, artistic license, but I really feel sorry for that guy. How many people thought his character was truly that way? I still like the movie.

Oh, the PBS miniseries, A Town Called Alice, was an excellent portrayal of how the Japanese treated civilians in the camps. Book of same name by Neville Shute. Fiction, but quite interesting.

Another Japanese POW camp book and movie: King Rat (fiction)