Occupy Wall Street Demands

Okay, Nymsys, I admit, I didn't click the link and read the full-on manifesto, but like you, I'm a bit pressed for time and can only respond to bits and pieces at a time. That said, your premise of overview and raising the minimum wage will result in the raising of everything else to the point of equality is foolish and misguided IMHO. I don't know if you own a business or work in finance, but from my own experiences, I can say that needing to raise the wages of an employee to meet a new minimum is not going to raise the cost of my water or electricity. I may have to increase my prices to the consumer, but not by so much that it would make my employee's increase in salary moot.

Sorry, Archer, I didn't read Otis' statements as being directed at you or yours directly, but I haven't been around here long enough to necessarily catch every reference to each other you guys often see. That said, I have some issues with Otis' statements:

"I have to wonder if the kids behind this movement really think they are being unrealistic."
I mentioned it in my earlier post, but I think having a starting point that is extreme is good for negotiations as long as you and the other side are willing to negotiate. This was the problem with Obama, the Dems and the Repubs when it came to the Health Insurance Reform debate. The Repubs refused to even enter the discussion and Obama and the Dems started their negotiating point as not a Single-Payer System like we should have, but started with the Public Option and barely backed that.


"For many of them the student loans are coming due, Mom and Dad have no more money in the college fund kitty or their own savings (thanks Barry)"
Although the President has not been able to resuscitate the economy back to full health yet, he has at least stemmed the bleeding. When Obama took the Office of President of the United States from George W Bush we were losing jobs at a rate of hundreds of thousands and unemployment was increasing. Since taking Office, the loss of jobs has stopped and there has been a decrease in the unemployment rate. It may not be much, but it is there and the losses have stopped. Additionally, the President has introduced a bill to Congress that would create hundreds of thousands of jobs and could assist in restoring the economy despite his Naysayers on the Right saying that it's not the job of the Executive Office and the Government to create jobs. What's the plan from the Right? Cut taxes (read: Revenue) and hope for the magic money fairy to visit the "free" market? How's that worked out for the past 30+ years since introduced by President Reagan?

"Protesting in the streets on a platform of demands that is completely irrational and impractical with your delusional friends is a complete waste of time. How about getting a second job instead? How about getting a little more involved in local politics and voting smarter?"
How many hours are there in a day, Otis? If the only job they can get is a McJob working for $7.50/hour for 40 hours a week and the McJob schedule isn't necessarily a standard 9-5 type job, when and where would you like these over-educated, underemployed youth to work? It would also seem to me that by organizing and participating in the Occupy Wall Street protests they are getting more involved in politics and voting Republican does not necessarily equate to voting smarter. Republicans, by and large, have not done the American People any favors recently. They have certainly helped out corporations and the wealthiest of Americans, but not the populace.

mittra303 - Yes Reagan did do all of us a favor by lowering taxes. I saw a whole country doing alot better than they were under Carter just a few short years before. Carter had the economy in ruins- just like Obama has it today. The republicans are the only ones with any sanity here right now. If it were the left allowed to run amok- spending would be even higher than it is now.

Since 2010 at least we have a few sane republicans- before that they were spending almost as fast as the democrats- none of them were doing us any favors. The job losses under Bush were minor compared to the losses under Obama- Bush has a record of overall job creation- not losses as you have eluded to. the real losses were due to Obama, and it could be debated that a good percentage of the job losses at the end of 2008 were due to the fact that many companies saw the change coming and started unloading jobs ahead of an Obama election victory. Those companies are the ones who will not hire in an environment like this one- an environment where the job creators and the successful are the targets.

Obama has placed more obstacles in the way of job creation than any republican has in my lifetime. Capitol is on strike- that's what the problem is.

Stupid ideas like a $20/hr minimum wage would mean millions more would lose their jobs- I think that's what you'd like to see! In fact - in this economic environment the minimum wage is way too high, if job creation is what we want, a minimum wage gets in the way. What was once a livable wage expectation will need to be re-evaluated by the new generation. Unless one's skills are the correct match for this new reality we face, many college students will need to re-adjust their expectations of what they can earn with a skillset that is no longer needed. Many political science and journalism majors will need to learn to flip burgers and salt the french fries- because their skills are worthless. This is an unfortunate reality they will be facing for making bad choices regarding their education. Some college grads will do just fine because they learned the skills that will remain in demand.

No one is entitled to a "living wage"- each individual will need to earn a living based on their skillset and the reality of the economic conditions we find ourselves in. Blaming the job producers and the wealthy will not help these people either. The entitlement attitude will not work any longer either- because were worse than broke- were broke and we owe 15 trillion dollars on top of it all.

The sooner they come to this reality - the better off they will be.

Reality is a bitch!

Mittra:

I'm sorry that you don't understand the economics that I pointed out to you. Maybe it is because you employ only one employee. If it was a larger company it would be easier to understand. The cost of labor can be a huge expense that has to be passed on to the end user, the purchaser. If you look at the cost of labor then going up in every business, not just your own, you might grasp the scenario I tried to get across.

Years ago when bread cost .25 a loaf to buy, gasoline was .28 per gallon, cars cost on average about $3,000 new, wages were a lot less. My point is it was all relative. To get to a point that minimum wages are $20 an hour, the cost of everything would be relative, no matter how you want it to be different. Sorry.

Did I miss something in the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights? These people protesting actually believe this.

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc459/Nmysys/JobIsARight.jpg

Wow. Simply, wow.

People like you scare the hell out of me, Bear.

Here's a chart from the Bureau of Labor Statistics that shows job losses under Presidents Bush and Obama:



As is obvious, the number of jobs lost each month DECREASED under President Obama as opposed to increasing under President Bush. I'm not going to argue with you that water is wet. These are undeniable clear cut facts. The number of jobs lost each month has decreased under President Obama. Again, it's not perfect and we still have record unemployment, but it's not getting worse.

If we want to fix this broken system of government, then political science majors should be in high demand and the fact that you consider journalism degrees a waste of an education says volumes.

We may not be Constitutionally entitled to a living wage, but have you ever tried living on minimum wage?

You're right, Nmysys, my vantage point may be skewed because I only have one employee, but at least my vantage point is grounded in reality. The price of gasoline didn't go from $.28/gallon to $3.58/gallon because the minimum wage went up... The price went up because of inflation.

This is why gas went up from $0.28/gal and bread from $0.25:

http://tmotr.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/table_sm.jpg?w=250&h=221

Not because the minimum wage went up.

Ask the guys who are unemployed if the job market was better in 2008 or today- you will get your real answer. Your chart shows what a recession looks like- except in a normal recession you see job creation after the losses. Obama's policies have prevented a recovery from happening. The jobs are not coming back because excessive taxes, regulations and future expenses are preventing an economy that can prosper.

Show me a chart that includes the last 2 years........

Lets see what that looks like.

mittra303 wrote: This is why gas went up from $0.28/gal and bread from $0.25:

http://tmotr.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/table_sm.jpg?w=250&h=221

Not because the minimum wage went up.

Mittra,
Let me guess, you don't have a major in economics? Prices for gasoline and bread went up because of inflation. More dollars out there than there were in the 1950's. But if you do adjust these prices for inflation, bread and gasoline are actually cheaper now than they were in the 1950's, and the costs of energy and food are a lower percent of people's budgets now than in the 1950's too.
Unlike the typical Republican here, I don't believe minimum wage increases are quite the bugaboo that they do. Higher minimum wages tend to spur an investment in capital and make businesses more productive.
Example: A US construction site will have a lot of heavy equipment digging ditches, etc. That same site in Mexico will have much less equipment and many more workers. Those Mexican workers are much cheaper than construction equipment so they hire them.

Now to your point about equitable salaries and unemployment. Guess what?
Your role model countries that have more equitable CEO salaries tend to have much higher unemployment than the US. Italy has 20% as their normal unemployment rate, much worse for the young, 40%. They talk about a lost generation, but at least they are able to tax the hell out of CEO's, right?

Here's what the longer term employment rate looks like.
A bigger picture....
Looks pretty tame during the bush years--- but wait....

Obamas 3 years don't look so good!
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:S&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=state&ifdim=state&tdim=true&tstart=944377200000&tend=1312524000000&hl=en&dl=en&icfg&uniSize=0.035&iconSize=0.5

What excessive taxes?!?! You mean the continuation of the Bush tax cuts we had to accept because the Repubs held unemployed American benefits hostage?

mittra303 wrote:
Sorry, Archer, I didn't read Otis' statements as being directed at you or yours directly, but I haven't been around here long enough to necessarily catch every reference to each other you guys often see. That said, I have some issues with Otis' statements:

I's been a long running meme here that liberal parents, and liberal colleges, have created an entitlement generation that no longer wants to work for a living......add in single parents (which I believe they attribute directly to liberalism, I'm sure they will correct me if I'm wrong) and you have kids that just weren't raised right, according to some conservatives. So yeah, I took otis's "too close to home" as an affront to my kids and those kids I know......which couldn't be further from the truth. But then, truth and $5 might get you a cup of coffee around here, but not much else.

I applaud the protesters in Occupy Wall Street.....it's about time people stood up and challenged the establishment idea that making the rich richer will somehow help us all, never has, never will. Their demands may be out of line, but their message is right on.....Enough is enough.....it's time to do what is best for the 99% of Americans, not the 1% who hold the purse strings and the corporations who hoard their money till they get the kind of government THEY want.