Reflections of Roe vs. Wade

PrintSmith wrote: Decisions issued on a foundation of clearly flawed logic are reversed with frequency by SCOTUS zhawke. Whether or not the foundation upon which Roe was decided is flawed is, I suppose, a matter of opinion. You might find the foundation quite sound and thus classify a reversal as "an unheard of precedent", but there are many, myself among them, who remain astounded that the flimsy foundation laid in Roe hasn't already collapsed.

I stand corrected:

For example, in the years 1946–1992, the U.S. Supreme Court reversed itself in about 130 cases.[7] The U.S. Supreme Court has further explained as follows:

[W]hen convinced of former error, this Court has never felt constrained to follow precedent. In constitutional questions, where correction depends upon amendment, and not upon legislative action, this Court throughout its history has freely exercised its power to reexamine the basis of its constitutional decisions.
—Smith v. Allwright, 321 U.S. 649, 665 (1944).[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stare_decisis The principle of Stare Decisis applies.

That being said, I still do not believe SCOTUS will overturn Roe vs. Wade unless there are "compelling" reason(s) to do so. I agree with you the foundation of the Roe vs. Wade decision is very much a matter of opinion. It is a difficult and controversial subject with no easy answers and/or solutions.

homeagain wrote: Ahh,Yes......BUT, I was really looking at the impact of this year's election cycle and the R's stance on this issue. IF an R is successfully placed in the White House and pressure is brought forward from the Right to Lifers (read HIGHLY religious faction) WHAT
might be the ramifications moving forward AFTER Nov-Jan of next year? Will R.v W. suffer in it's anniversary year of 40,41?

NOW, let's take this a step further into the discussion,since we have ascertained that is IS possible for SCOTUS to overturn.........
Gingrich slammed the vote in S.C. and the evangelical sector made sure of that......and WHAT is Gingrich stance on abortion,he is
pro-life......and finds the law questionable in it's validity. ......of course, never mind that his OWN ethics have been in question for a VERY long time(ahem, weren't there legal issues that he could not circumvent?)

homeagain wrote:

homeagain wrote: Ahh,Yes......BUT, I was really looking at the impact of this year's election cycle and the R's stance on this issue. IF an R is successfully placed in the White House and pressure is brought forward from the Right to Lifers (read HIGHLY religious faction) WHAT
might be the ramifications moving forward AFTER Nov-Jan of next year? Will R.v W. suffer in it's anniversary year of 40,41?

NOW, let's take this a step further into the discussion,since we have ascertained that is IS possible for SCOTUS to overturn.........
Gingrich slammed the vote in S.C. and the evangelical sector made sure of that......and WHAT is Gingrich stance on abortion,he is
pro-life......and finds the law questionable in it's validity. ......of course, never mind that his OWN ethics have been in question for a VERY long time(ahem, wasn't there legal issues that he could not circumvent?)

Well, I'm not sure. But, I'm pretty sure he's not an egotist - he just plays one on tv: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/19/gingrich-suggests-he-will-ignore-roe-v-wade/ This isn't the only link I found citing his "suggestion" that he'll ignore Roe vs. Wade. In fact, I found others in which he intimates he will ignore SCOTUS if he thinks their decisions are wrong.

homeagain wrote:

homeagain wrote: Ahh,Yes......BUT, I was really looking at the impact of this year's election cycle and the R's stance on this issue. IF an R is successfully placed in the White House and pressure is brought forward from the Right to Lifers (read HIGHLY religious faction) WHAT
might be the ramifications moving forward AFTER Nov-Jan of next year? Will R.v W. suffer in it's anniversary year of 40,41?

NOW, let's take this a step further into the discussion,since we have ascertained that is IS possible for SCOTUS to overturn.........
Gingrich slammed the vote in S.C. and the evangelical sector made sure of that......and WHAT is Gingrich stance on abortion,he is
pro-life......and finds the law questionable in it's validity. ......of course, never mind that his OWN ethics have been in question for a VERY long time(ahem, weren't there legal issues that he could not circumvent?)

His own ethics don't mean jack. And you are hacking up issues that are 15 years old. Good luck with that. I hope to hell you never run up against being denied something you want because of some personal incident in your life... 15... 20 years ago. Let us know if and when that happens. I would like the opportunity to laugh in your face.

I've never seen the left SO worried about morals. The left has been working their little white asses off inculcating relative morality and Modernism into our schools, the workplace, corporate culture and daily life... and now... all of a sudden... because there is good reason to be worried about the lefts political position in this country... suddenly there is a wave of phony "outrage" at Cain and Gingrich... and the left is pissing in their pants about Roe vs. Wade and all kinds of other issue.

Chill out... and take your beating like a man.

ComputerBreath wrote:

Arlen wrote: I rationally explained the situation:
Liberals are for abortion (murder) of babies (victims) by their mothers (perpetrators).
Liberals are for the abolition of the death penalty (justice) of murders (perpetrators) despite the death (murder) of their victim.

Conservatives are against abortion (murder) of babies (victims) by their mothers (perpetrators).
Conservatives are against the abolition of the death penalty (justice) of murders (perpetrators) despite the death (murder) of their victim.

Please point out my error in this.

Arlen: I believe I can speak to this, as my little sister was murdered when she was 8 and I was 11. In my life I have only met one other person that belongs to this exclusive club...and believe me, it is not a club I want to belong to.

I do not consider myself liberal or conservative, and by generalizing that all liberals want the death penalty done away with and all conservatives want to keep the death penalty...you have categorized me without even knowing anything about me. Almost the same as me saying that all men are obtuse and do not pay attention.

Frankly, I feel anger when you talk about this very emotional and painful subject, unless you have experienced it personally. If you have experienced the murder of a close friend or family member and the aftermath that occurs with it for years and years and years, then, by all means, please continue to voice your opinion.

FYI: I believe in the death penalty in certain circumstances. I believe each and every circumstance should be reviewed individually with several factors, some of which are: 1) How many times has this perpetrator committed crimes? 2) What kind of crimes has the perpetrator committed? 3) What is the background, specifically what kind of childhood did this person have? 4) What was the motive of the crime? 5) What is putting this person to death going to accomplish, besides killing the perpetrator? 6) What are the wishes of the victim's family (though this information could be vile and angry, it does have an impact)?

And, yes, I realize what was said above is my opinion...but, as I said earlier, I believe I have more of a right to speak to this than most other people.

If you are neither liberal nor conservative, how have I catogerized you? You are outside of the two groups that were mentioned. This is illogical.

If your experience is as you state, then you know that all of the circumstances that you state as conditions ARE considered in the sentencing to death of a murderer.

So what is your point?

Arlen wrote:

ComputerBreath wrote:

Arlen wrote: I rationally explained the situation:
Liberals are for abortion (murder) of babies (victims) by their mothers (perpetrators).
Liberals are for the abolition of the death penalty (justice) of murders (perpetrators) despite the death (murder) of their victim.

Conservatives are against abortion (murder) of babies (victims) by their mothers (perpetrators).
Conservatives are against the abolition of the death penalty (justice) of murders (perpetrators) despite the death (murder) of their victim.

Please point out my error in this.

Arlen: I believe I can speak to this, as my little sister was murdered when she was 8 and I was 11. In my life I have only met one other person that belongs to this exclusive club...and believe me, it is not a club I want to belong to.

I do not consider myself liberal or conservative, and by generalizing that all liberals want the death penalty done away with and all conservatives want to keep the death penalty...you have categorized me without even knowing anything about me. Almost the same as me saying that all men are obtuse and do not pay attention.

Frankly, I feel anger when you talk about this very emotional and painful subject, unless you have experienced it personally. If you have experienced the murder of a close friend or family member and the aftermath that occurs with it for years and years and years, then, by all means, please continue to voice your opinion.

FYI: I believe in the death penalty in certain circumstances. I believe each and every circumstance should be reviewed individually with several factors, some of which are: 1) How many times has this perpetrator committed crimes? 2) What kind of crimes has the perpetrator committed? 3) What is the background, specifically what kind of childhood did this person have? 4) What was the motive of the crime? 5) What is putting this person to death going to accomplish, besides killing the perpetrator? 6) What are the wishes of the victim's family (though this information could be vile and angry, it does have an impact)?

And, yes, I realize what was said above is my opinion...but, as I said earlier, I believe I have more of a right to speak to this than most other people.

If you are neither liberal nor conservative, how have I catogerized you? You are outside of the two groups that were mentioned. This is illogical.

If your experience is as you state, then you know that all of the circumstances that you state as conditions ARE considered in the sentencing to death of a murderer.

So what is your point?

First of all, it angers me that you question my experience...why did you do that? What I said wasn't for publicity or to get sympathy...it was fact. Don't believe me? Google Michael Bartowsheski on the internet or on the Colorado Department of Corrections website. You will see that he was convicted of murder and sentenced in 1979 (yes, I could have pulled this information from the internet and made up a story...choose to believe me if you want, I know the truth). I've included a link below about his appeal, which gives a synopsis of the crimes committed...there are errors in this report...my brother is younger than I am by 15 months and since I was 11 1/2, there is no way he was 12...he had turned 10 in August of 1978. Mike & Boyd tried to work with my dad, but landscaping in Colorado in the winter isn't the most income-producing endeavor...they had recently started working for a construction company and had just gotten their first pay check...that's why they were going out on Friday, to spend their paycheck drinking. Boyd was actually AWOL from the Navy and had stolen the El Camino they were driving. Boyd was 19, Mike was 20 when this happened. The story has been told that my dad owed them money...I do not believe this to be true...they were supposed to be paying us rent from their paycheck and so in fact owed us money for rent. We do not fully understand why they decided to rob us...possibly because Boyd was AWOL and was afraid to stay in one area to long...but we do know that both were drunk, and drunk people make decisions that boggle the mind. While my sister's given name was Michelle, we never, ever called her that...we called her Shelley. My sister was voluntarily sleeping on the couch in the living room because two of my friends were staying the night and were sleeping in her bed. Read the link...it is chilling...and I was there and lived it.

Had I started my post with I believe in the death penalty in certain circumstances, would you have categorized me as a conservative as your original post states? Because I said I was neither, but believe in the death penalty...then according to your very general categorization, what am I?

Your original post said absolutely nothing about anyone that falls outside the two categories...there were no other categories except liberal and conservative mentioned in your post, so according to your logic and opinion, everyone has to fall into one of these two categories.

And actually, not all the circumstances I state are considered in death penalty cases. It really depends on what state the trial is being held in. At the time Shelley's murderer was sentenced, victim statements were not allowed in court nor were victims allowed to be present at parole hearings and present a statement. Things have changed in 34 years.

You can choose to read the attached link and believe that I am one of the four Talbott children mentioned in it, which makes my mom Nancy, my dad Richard (though he was always called Dick), and Michelle my little sister. Or you can choose not to read the link and believe that what I said is a made-up story for whatever gain you think I might get. You can even choose to judge me based on any information you may have read that I've posted. Even hinting that I am a liar about this experience is beyond the pale.

http://174.123.24.242/leagle/xmlResult. ... -1950-1985

My point is that I believe in the death penalty in certain circumstances...and, in your world that would make me a Conservative...which I am certainly not. You were the one to tell us to point out your error...I believe I just did.

I have no interest in wasting money in the courts.

The best way to stop abortion is not through the courts ---- it's through the hearts and minds of people who decide whether or not they want one.

That's why I don't give a dime to the fat cat lawyers and politicos

---

and hapily support adoption agencies, pregnancy centers, and youth outreach organizations.

Yeah - I'd like to persuade people to choose life --- and I don't apologize for my views on this matter. At the same time, the supreme court has made it clear --- people have a choice. No amount of legal bantering, legislation, or political jawboning is going to change that. Even some of the more conservative justices have made that clear.

7 pages...

and we still have not discussed the decrease in crime as a result of abortions. We know crime goes down when you remove people that society did not want and neglected. Again, I believe and bet most of you believe parenting quality matters and mothers that wanted to abort and can not will likely not take as good of care of their babbies. I am ok with abortion beyond this disucussion, but I am not convinced that we did not save American lives by allowing Abortion. We lowered crime rates significanty, this has been studied and to argue it is again to argue in favor of parenting does not matter. We lock up 1/100 of these fetuses when they grow up...we have more people in prison than any other country, in terms of beating hearts and %'s (for those obsessed with %'s - for fairness). Imagine how many more criminals, how many more prisoners and how much more of police state we would have today if abortion was made illegal or never legalized.

Also GOPtiwn, 7 pages ago, thanks for not answering my inqueries again and just defending your right to be firm...you are very firm, I agree and firm about not addressing other people's points directly. I was looking forward to your data and info on how coat hanger abortions did not happen and unwanted babbies grow up to be good citizens. People have posted how back alley and non modern surgury resulted from the ban on abortions, we know crime dropped quite a bit as a result and again please have fun arguing that one (again make sure to seal the point of parenting quality not mattering in the future of the child).

And what is up with the most conservative candidate on this topic's wife having an abortion? Also I am wondering if any anti abortion people on here have done more than rant and tried to decrease the demand for abortion by adopting. Step up an make everyone who supports abortion rights feel a little shallow. One anti-abortion person stepping up to admit they adopted to help the issue they are passionate about is worth more than 1000 posts by GOPtwin and Arlen, well worded or not. It is one thing to believe something, it is another to take on the burden of your beliefs. I think passionate involvement in this issue take more than arguement and not aborting your own children. Of course I don't expect all of you to adopt, but I would figure with at least a few antiabortion rights folks here that at least one has adopted. I hope to do so (adopt) in the not so distant future, I have never been party to an abortion (aside from accepting the current state of law), but would not restrict someone from doing so.

ComputerBreath, if things are as you say, then, judging by your post, you are too involved emotionally with your history to think rationally about this subject. I have not stated that everyone in the world must fall into one of two categories: liberal or conservative. But it seems that this is what you want me to say so that it will be easier for you to hate me or stop the conversation.

But if you are bent upon getting your feelings hurt, then, by all means, jump right in here with your anecdotal story and revolve the discussion around yourself.

Arlen: I've copied and pasted your exact words below. Please explain to me how your statements do not put me into the category of Conservative, since I am for the death penalty?

"I rationally explained the situation:
Liberals are for abortion (murder) of babies (victims) by their mothers (perpetrators).
Liberals are for the abolition of the death penalty (justice) of murders (perpetrators) despite the death (murder) of their victim.

Conservatives are against abortion (murder) of babies (victims) by their mothers (perpetrators).
Conservatives are against the abolition of the death penalty (justice) of murders (perpetrators) despite the death (murder) of their victim.

Please point out my error in this."

You may be correct...I am very close to this situation, I've lived it my whole life and it is extremely difficult for me to hear people talking about what they do not know and judging based on their assumptions.

I am merely pointing out that, based on actual experience of a situation, what you presume as Liberal or Conservative may be incorrect...and as has been pointed out by others in previous posts, is in fact generalizing the human population.

And, based on my experiences and knowledge of life-situations, I do not now, nor have I ever, nor will I ever allow myself to be generalized and accept a label.