FredHayek wrote: Consider this, in the last 10 years, many States have passed concealed carry, Illinois is the last holdout. Yet the streets haven't run red with blood, crime and violence continue to decline, so it looks like concealed carry wasn't as dangerous as the left feared.
Has the crime rate in Illinois declined at the same levels as in states where concealed carry is allowed?
I am not attempting to equate falling crime with CCW, less than 10% of people in a state legally carry, and usualy much fewer than that. Instead, allowing people to legally carry guns hasn't turned every argument into a gun fight, or road rage into drivebys.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
FredHayek wrote: Consider this, in the last 10 years, many States have passed concealed carry, Illinois is the last holdout. Yet the streets haven't run red with blood, crime and violence continue to decline, so it looks like concealed carry wasn't as dangerous as the left feared.
Does that mean, then, you believe concealed carry has contributed to the "decline" in crime and violence?
Martin Ent Inc wrote: Your talking to your hand, cause they ain't gonna listen Fred.
The invitation to The PEACE Challenge is open to you, too, Martin. While you may believe in your heart there is no gray area on this issue of gun ownership, there are many who would disagree. It never was, in my opinion, an "either - or" proposition, nor will it ever be. There are those who prefer not to own guns, and those who would die defending their so-called "right" to own them. What I have a problem with are the zealots on both extremes that prevent a sensible dialogue from taking place. I could go into a whole plethora of instances during the aftermath of the shootings at Columbine, both pro and con, to prove my point, but I'd rather focus on positive dialogue to reach some kind of consensus on this very divisive issue. If you'd care to get involved in this dialogue, please join us.
FredHayek wrote: Consider this, in the last 10 years, many States have passed concealed carry, Illinois is the last holdout. Yet the streets haven't run red with blood, crime and violence continue to decline, so it looks like concealed carry wasn't as dangerous as the left feared.
Does that mean, then, you believe concealed carry has contributed to the "decline" in crime and violence?
I don't think it has. Too few people carry, and they are not amateur police, just trying to protect themselves and family members
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
FredHayek wrote: Consider this, in the last 10 years, many States have passed concealed carry, Illinois is the last holdout. Yet the streets haven't run red with blood, crime and violence continue to decline, so it looks like concealed carry wasn't as dangerous as the left feared.
But the street yet may run red with blood... especially on college campuses. And if outlawing conceal carry can save one life...
FredHayek wrote: Consider this, in the last 10 years, many States have passed concealed carry, Illinois is the last holdout. Yet the streets haven't run red with blood, crime and violence continue to decline, so it looks like concealed carry wasn't as dangerous as the left feared.
Does that mean, then, you believe concealed carry has contributed to the "decline" in crime and violence?
And does that mean that conceal carry has contributed to the increase in crime and violence?
Sorry Z - there is only one group of zealots causing a problem - the group that is intent on denying liberty to others. I have no issue with those who choose not to own arms, that is a choice they are free to make for themselves. The only ones I take an issue with are the ones intent on telling me what arms I may own once I have made the decision that I wish to own arms.
Concealed carry, IMNTBHO, has only become a shall issue necessity because of the irrational fears of the current society associated with open carry. If our current society respected the natural right of self defense to be expressed by the carrying of visible arms at all times in all places there would be no meed for a process to carry them concealed and no one would take issue with laws that forbade the carrying of concealed arms. Take from someone the ability to avail themselves of their natural right of self defense in a visible manner, however, and you must then permit them access to that same right in an invisible one.
PrintSmith wrote: Sorry Z - there is only one group of zealots causing a problem - the group that is intent on denying liberty to others. I have no issue with those who choose not to own arms, that is a choice they are free to make for themselves. The only ones I take an issue with are the ones intent on telling me what arms I may own once I have made the decision that I wish to own arms.
Concealed carry, IMNTBHO, has only become a shall issue necessity because of the irrational fears of the current society associated with open carry. If our current society respected the natural right of self defense to be expressed by the carrying of visible arms at all times in all places there would be no meed for a process to carry them concealed and no one would take issue with laws that forbade the carrying of concealed arms. Take from someone the ability to avail themselves of their natural right of self defense in a visible manner, however, and you must then permit them access to that same right in an invisible one.
And for those conservatives who have lost hope at America becoming socialist Europe, the liberalization(pun intended?) of gun rights is proof that occasionally the Right does win.
Thomas Sowell: There are no solutions, just trade-offs.
Soo the news said the 30 year ban against CCW at CU was eliminated...so CCW did win out. Personally, not a huge issue to me...not sure CCW will really change much of anything at CU.
I still don't understand why fear dictates every moment of the conservative's life. If you can't leave the house without being locked and loaded, you've got some serious insecurities. I know, I know...it's your right to be a chicken and constantly afraid of the big bad world...I guess being confident and assured I can manage daily life without mechanized fire power means I'll never "get it". Well, I guess its good that guns can help the less secure manage to cope with their fears.
