CU Loses On Concealed Carry

The Liberals GOP Twin wrote:

ZHawke wrote:

FredHayek wrote: Consider this, in the last 10 years, many States have passed concealed carry, Illinois is the last holdout. Yet the streets haven't run red with blood, crime and violence continue to decline, so it looks like concealed carry wasn't as dangerous as the left feared.

Does that mean, then, you believe concealed carry has contributed to the "decline" in crime and violence?

And does that mean that conceal carry has contributed to the increase in crime and violence?

Illogical. Fred stated, and I quote:

crime and violence continue to decline

I don't presume to speak for Fred, but I'll take a leap of faith and assume he's done his research to back up his statement. All I was asking was whether or not he believes concealed carry had anything to do with that decline. If there has been a "decline" in concealed carry, how can you even ask if that means "that conceal carry has contributed to the increase in crime and violence?" Your argument is invalid.

According to my research, most of the decrease in crime has been due to the aging of the baby boomers and the imposing of long prison terms to offenders. Studies saying concealed carry reduces crime compete with studies saying it makes little difference, so it could be doing something, but it hasn't been proven to my satisfaction. It is interesting to see that the cities with the most restrictive gun laws seem to have more gun crime, but maybe the crime is endemic to the community and banning guns is just a response to the crime.

Washington residents are up in arms, though not armed. With violent crime up 40 percent in the first two months of the year - including double the number of robberies at gunpoint - residents are looking for ways to protect themselves. Elected officials and police have no solution.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/ ... -a-victim/

FredHayek wrote: According to my research, most of the decrease in crime has been due to the aging of the baby boomers and the imposing of long prison terms to offenders. Studies saying concealed carry reduces crime compete with studies saying it makes little difference, so it could be doing something, but it hasn't been proven to my satisfaction. It is interesting to see that the cities with the most restrictive gun laws seem to have more gun crime, but maybe the crime is endemic to the community and banning guns is just a response to the crime.

Well said, Fred. I don't pretend to have any answers when it comes to the issue of gun ownership. That's why I've tried to open the discussion on The PEACE Challenge facebook page and website. The issue of school safety, regardless of what level we are talking about (elementary, middle school, high school, college) is very near and dear to my heart. Sadly, I believe we need to address this issue and include a dialogue about gun ownership, in general, in the discussion. It shouldn't have to be this way, but it is. I grew up in an area, as many here in Colorado have, where kids drove to school with rifles in their pickups. No one thought anything about it, including me. I hunted, I still own a gun. I could have (operative word here is "could") gone to the extremist side following the events at Columbine High School demanding a ban on all gun ownership. But I didn't, nor will I. When the shooting took place at Platte Canyon High School, I almost shut down emotionally. But, thanks to my lovely wife, we went to Bailey in an effort to see how we might be able to help. The nutjob there had caches of weapons stashed in the area from what I understand. I still am not calling for a ban on gun ownership, nor will I. Discussion and dialogue - two very critical means to an agreeable end, in my opinion.

That's why I've tried to open the discussion on The PEACE Challenge facebook page and website.

Really- what's to discuss here? Why would anyone want to go to the "The PEACE Challenge facebook page" when there are plenty of people right here on 285bound who want to ban guns.

I don't know what there is to discuss really- there are those who don't give a hoot about our constitutional right to bear arms- and there are those who do care about the right. I don't have any expectation that I can get them to lay off their anti-gun agenda- and they should not have any expectation to turn me into a gun hating leftist.

I agree with this quote....

Sorry Z - there is only one group of zealots causing a problem - the group that is intent on denying liberty to others.

FredHayek wrote: And for those conservatives who have lost hope at America becoming socialist Europe, the liberalization(pun intended?) of gun rights is proof that occasionally the Right does win.

Fred- yes on occasion a blind squirrel finds a nut too....
These recent gains are only possible because of vigilant patriots keep the pressure up- they keep fighting- they keep advocating for our rights. Stop for a minute and those opposed to this liberty will converge over the issue like a bum on a ham sandwitch. We are indeed becoming a socialist Europe like country- and we keep seeing more and more un-constitutional laws being passed each and every day. The few wins in the conservative column only happens because we keep fighting to preserve our constitutional rights.

How many years did CU manage to get away with denying us this constitutional right? Will the college now compensate all who were denied this right with their un-constitutional law? Will those responsible for this bad law be held accountable for their actions?

Nope.

plaidvillain wrote: Soo the news said the 30 year ban against CCW at CU was eliminated...so CCW did win out. Personally, not a huge issue to me...not sure CCW will really change much of anything at CU.

I still don't understand why fear dictates every moment of the conservative's life. If you can't leave the house without being locked and loaded, you've got some serious insecurities. I know, I know...it's your right to be a chicken and constantly afraid of the big bad world...I guess being confident and assured I can manage daily life without mechanized fire power means I'll never "get it". Well, I guess its good that guns can help the less secure manage to cope with their fears.

And this quote- huh. You presume that fear dictates every moment of the conservative's life. You may have it wrong there. I assert it is the Liberal anti-gun zealots who are living in fear- constantly whining and complaining about guns and even advocating for and becoming an activist for anti-gun causes.

What other reason is there for this anti-2nd amendment constitutional right behavior would there be except for fear. You guys are the scaredy cats.

It is not an irrational thought - or out of fear that some Americans choose to protect themselves and excersize this constitutional right. The reality of a dangerous society makes it a logical, rational response.

But- It is fear that drives the anti-gun crowd. I'm afrid it's true!

ZHawke wrote:

FredHayek wrote: According to my research, most of the decrease in crime has been due to the aging of the baby boomers and the imposing of long prison terms to offenders. Studies saying concealed carry reduces crime compete with studies saying it makes little difference, so it could be doing something, but it hasn't been proven to my satisfaction. It is interesting to see that the cities with the most restrictive gun laws seem to have more gun crime, but maybe the crime is endemic to the community and banning guns is just a response to the crime.

Well said, Fred. I don't pretend to have any answers when it comes to the issue of gun ownership. That's why I've tried to open the discussion on The PEACE Challenge facebook page and website. The issue of school safety, regardless of what level we are talking about (elementary, middle school, high school, college) is very near and dear to my heart. Sadly, I believe we need to address this issue and include a dialogue about gun ownership, in general, in the discussion. It shouldn't have to be this way, but it is. I grew up in an area, as many here in Colorado have, where kids drove to school with rifles in their pickups. No one thought anything about it, including me. I hunted, I still own a gun. I could have (operative word here is "could") gone to the extremist side following the events at Columbine High School demanding a ban on all gun ownership. But I didn't, nor will I. When the shooting took place at Platte Canyon High School, I almost shut down emotionally. But, thanks to my lovely wife, we went to Bailey in an effort to see how we might be able to help. The nutjob there had caches of weapons stashed in the area from what I understand. I still am not calling for a ban on gun ownership, nor will I. Discussion and dialogue - two very critical means to an agreeable end, in my opinion.

We already have an agreeable end. And the discussion and dialog took place over 225 years ago. And anyone using the crime statistics, right or left, are throwing out a red herring. Crime statistics have nothing to do with a constitutional right. I have no problem with school safety. but gun ownership doesn't come into it. Misuse of owned guns is the real issue. That's what needs to be addressed IMO. I could be wrong.

Stole this from a friend:

I went to one of those community safety meetings last night here in CSPD. I was literally shocked... The cop talking actually said, "Fight or flight. If you decide on fight, don't count on anyone else. Average response time of the CSPD right now is over the national median of 8 minutes. Be as aggressive and lethal as possible. If you have the shot, take it." The whole room was silent for like thirty seconds and then they all clapped.

I'll bet lots of Aurora business owners are contemplating a CCW permit now. This guy will eventually shoot someone or be shot himself (hopefully). watch the video..

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ ... source=rss

Bear, I am not afraid of guns, have never done anything to restrict anyone's rights, and would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to protect OUR 2nd amendment, but I personally don't feel any need to be armed while in public just in case something happens. I do believe people who DO feel that need have deep insecurities and irrational fears. But hey, if it makes you comfy, by all means - it IS your right.

Does it promote a healthy atmosphere for education to have armed students in the classroom? In my opinion, no. As with all of our rights and freedoms, there are levels of reasonable restriction. Clearly, where that line is drawn is debatable and perhaps can only be determined by each individual. Given the choice, with all other factors equal, I'd prefer a school that did not permit weapons...but that's just me.

plaidvillain wrote: I know, I know...it's your right to be a chicken and constantly afraid of the big bad world...

Freedom and liberty are indeed very scary things to many PV, and the one who is frightened of something is, generally speaking, the one attempting to take these things away from others. People were afraid of the gangsters, so they required registration and taxation of Tommy Guns from the law abiding thinking that somehow a criminal who had decided to murder someone else would be dissuaded from doing so with a Tommy Gun because they were now exorbitantly taxed and required to be registered by the law. The same (il)logic was then applied to handguns - disarm the law abiding and the criminals will decide to obey the laws as well. It was next applied to select fire weapons. Make it illegal for the law abiding to own one made after a certain date and the criminals will stop using them too. The ones who are afraid are the ones seeking to control the actions of others via the law - not the ones who are accepting of the reality that allowing freedom and liberty sometimes ends up with that liberty and freedom being misused.

How many laws were broken by those cowards at CHS? How many of the laws since enacted in the wake of those laws being broken would have stopped what happened? The answer to these questions is that they broke many of our laws and that not a single law passed in the wake of that tragedy would have prevented it from occurring. The instant background checks at gun shows would not have prevented the sale of the shotgun used in the attack from being sold because the person who purchased that weapon at the gun show would have passed the background check. Making straw purchases illegal has not stopped straw purchases from being made and would not have prevented the straw purchase of the weapon used by the cowards at Columbine. The law against selling, or giving, a handgun, or a long gun, to a minor, or ammunition to minors, were also laws that were on the books at the time and laws that were broken. The laws against murder were broken. The laws against carrying weapons onto school property were broken. The laws against discharging a firearm within X feet of a road, or residence, or on school property were also all broken. Laws offer no protection - they only provide for remedies once one of the laws is broken.