Catholic Church denounces capitalism

The Liberals GOP Twin wrote:

Something the Dog Said wrote: Why would I be against capitalism? I am a huge proponent of it, but I also believe in helping those in need of assistance. I am just against those who try to claim moral clarity in order to justify their own selfishness.

And of course you are judge and jury of who those people are? Right? Yea... sure.

It is evident of who those people are.

Something the Dog Said wrote: So you believe Americans should turn their back on the teachings of Christ and worship at the altar of money?

I'm an atheist... so I don't necessarily fall into the religion trap... but good try Dog. I don't worship anything, I'm self-contained, I see mankind for what it is and if I follow anything, it would be the Jewish principle of tzedakah, which in a simple explanation is you try to do a good deed for man, of some sort, at least every day, without any regards to having them do something for you. Sort of "pass it on" without expecting payback... you should get to the point of not even thinking about getting anything in return... you build this into yourself as an automatic response to mankinds needs.

Kind of simple when you think of it... but kind of cosmic in scope.

Something the Dog Said wrote: So you believe Americans should turn their back on the teachings of Christ and worship at the altar of money?

And you never answered my question about the popes stance on abortion. Since you brought up this subject... or is your use of the pope statements only selective on your part... out of convenience... to bludgeon conservatives?

Something the Dog Said wrote: Why would I be against capitalism? I am a huge proponent of it, but I also believe in helping those in need of assistance. I am just against those who try to claim moral clarity in order to justify their own selfishness.

As do the majority of Christians in general - as a personal obligation of serving their God as He taught them to serve Him. Salvation Army? Who do you think started that outfit Dog, an atheist? Catholic Charities ring a bell with you? Samaritan's Purse? Compassion International? I can list a bunch of them Dog, the list is a lot longer than anything anyone would like to see posted here.

One must presume that you are attempting to make the tired, and unsubstantiated, "progressive" argument that paying taxes to the government to support the poor was one of Jesus' teachings - though no one I am aware of has yet to provide a single scriptural reference where Jesus taught any such thing.

Something the Dog Said wrote: So you believe Americans should turn their back on the teachings of Christ and worship at the altar of money?

Are you proposing that they turn their backs on His teachings and worship at the alter of government instead? Didn't He make a clear distinction between one's duty to Caesar and one's duty to God? Did Jesus teach that one must make a personal sacrifice for government or for their Creator?

Something the Dog Said wrote: So you believe Americans should turn their back on the teachings of Christ and worship at the altar of money?

Have you ever been to Vatican City? Can you say "opulent"?

I'm not a Catholic, but I am a Christian. There can be no doubt that our Lords teachings denounce the love of money, so having the head of a Christian faith reiterate that is in no way surprising. As much as all Christians aspire to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, very few of us can achieve the level of asceticism that would require. The new Pope seems to be walking his office back from the disconnect his predecessors opulence caused. I see this as more of a repositioning of the focus of the Catholic church from political issues to spiritual ones, which is as it should be.

chickaree wrote: I'm not a Catholic, but I am a Christian. There can be no doubt that our Lords teachings denounce the love of money, so having the head of a Christian faith reiterate that is in no way surprising. As much as all Christians aspire to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, very few of us can achieve the level of asceticism that would require. The new Pope seems to be walking his office back from the disconnect his predecessors opulence caused. I see this as more of a repositioning of the focus of the Catholic church from political issues to spiritual ones, which is as it should be.

You're confusing the "love of money," "greed" the misuse of wealth... with being wealthy.

“No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. (NIV, Matthew 6:24-25, 31-33)

"...and all these things will be given to you as well." Most scripture. whether it be the Hebrew scripture or the Greek scriptures teaches a tempered view of being wealthy. Job was blessed with wealth by God... so was Abraham and Jacob. Solomon was extremely wealthy. Giving to the poor would be rather in vain if you have nothing to give? The Pope urged that money should be made to “serve” people, not to “rule” them.

Just like your opinion above is based on taking scripture out of context (you weren't using scripture as the foundation of your thought above... right)... taking the Pope statements out of context is convenient way to make a point he wasn't making, but it sounds good... doesn't it... and you fall into the same trap as Dog. Using out of context concepts to try to bludgeon conservatives.

You don't come across as someone who has actually studied the Bible, it's checks and balances, the actual meanings of the original languages... critical textual examination? Instead you are concocting a strawman out of nothing.

I'm an atheist... but a well studied atheist, steeped in biblical studies and theology. If you are going to use scripture to make a point, you had better know what you are talking about. Otherwise... it's easy to see through your dishonesty.

You seek to offend by calling me dishonest, but do not pretend that you, an atheist, can begin to understand the teachings of Our Lord. If you heart is closed to the Word, you cannot hear it.

chickaree wrote: You seek to offend by calling me dishonest, but do not pretend that you, an atheist, can begin to understand the teachings of Our Lord. If you heart is closed to the Word, you cannot hear it.

Sounds like a copout statement. You can only understand my god if you have been converted (or brainwashed). I think I can be a scholar of the Buddhist faith without being a Buddhist.

Up to an earlier statement, the opulence of Vatican City. I have visited and was impressed with the art in the museum. Would you have it all be sold and the money given to the poor?

Back after the fall of the Roman Empire, monastaries held much of the knowledge of the western world, should they have sold it to make money for the poor? The church has many functions, and while I like the new Pope's humility and rejection of material wealth, there are times to hold wealth in trust. Or would you supprt selling off Yellowstone National Park and giving the money to poor people with huge medical bills?
People and corporations would pay huge sums to own Old Faithful and Yellowstone Lake.

Adam Smith (father of capitalism) had a background in Moral Philosophy.

I think even he believed in the limits of capitalism.

There's a variety of assumptions behind the phrase "free market" - that are violated when capitalism goes wild.

Some of the more exploitative situations that have been unveiled recently (garment factories in Bangladesh, for example) certainly give me pause.