Catholic Church denounces capitalism

Well I guess there isn't anything else in the news to talk about...

When there are two Popes, it's hard to tell who is the mouthpiece of Jesus.

The Liberals GOP Twin wrote:

Something the Dog Said wrote:

PrintSmith wrote:

Something the Dog Said wrote: Why would I be against capitalism? I am a huge proponent of it, but I also believe in helping those in need of assistance. I am just against those who try to claim moral clarity in order to justify their own selfishness.

As do the majority of Christians in general - as a personal obligation of serving their God as He taught them to serve Him. Salvation Army? Who do you think started that outfit Dog, an atheist? Catholic Charities ring a bell with you? Samaritan's Purse? Compassion International? I can list a bunch of them Dog, the list is a lot longer than anything anyone would like to see posted here.

One must presume that you are attempting to make the tired, and unsubstantiated, "progressive" argument that paying taxes to the government to support the poor was one of Jesus' teachings - though no one I am aware of has yet to provide a single scriptural reference where Jesus taught any such thing.

Something the Dog Said wrote: So you believe Americans should turn their back on the teachings of Christ and worship at the altar of money?

Are you proposing that they turn their backs on His teachings and worship at the alter of government instead? Didn't He make a clear distinction between one's duty to Caesar and one's duty to God? Did Jesus teach that one must make a personal sacrifice for government or for their Creator?

Yet once again you choose to resort to creating dishonest straw man arguments rather than address the topic directly. I believe, as Pope Francis described, the growing inequality in the incomes between the one percent and the working class is a societal problem. That this inequality has occurred, not because of any prolific increase in the work habits of the wealthiest, but to gaming the financial and tax codes. That the policies favoring increasing the wealth of the few at the harm to those at the lower end of the economic strata do not follow the teachings of Christ.

Can you give some scriptural references for your position?

Matthew 12:41-44
Matthew 19:21
Matthew 19:24
Matthew 25:34 - 46
Timothy 6:17 - 19
Luke 12:33
Luke 21: 1-4
James 2:14

Just a few to get you started.

Something the Dog Said wrote: Just a few to get you started.

Let's actually look at the text itself...

Matthew 12:41-44

43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

(This doesn't condemn anyone for being rich... this is talking about attitude and what's in a persons heart)

Matthew 19:21

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

(This doesn't condemn anyone for being rich... this is talking about attitude and what's in a persons heart)

Matthew 19:24

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

(This doesn't condemn anyone for being rich... this is talking about attitude and what's in a persons heart)

Matthew 25:34 - 46

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

(I don't see anything about a rich person in this long quotation at all)

Timothy 6:17 - 19

17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

(Once again... this doesn't condemn or say there is anything wrong about being rich. It's actually telling a rich person to be generous... it's hard to be generous if you have nothing to give)

Luke 12:33

25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life ? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest? 27 "Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. 32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

(Taking thing out of context again.. right Dog. Let's look at the context... by looking at the WHOLE thought in this discourse. "For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well." First notice that there is no condemnation of Solomon. According to the Hebrew scripture, Solomon was the richest man in the world. And he was one of God's "favorites." What will be "these things given to you as well..." that God "know that you need?" Well... eat, drink... the worldly things that the pagans strive after. Once again... it's a matter of heart and attitude... there is nothing in these passages that castrates the rich.

Luke 21: 1-4

(We already covered this in Matthew)

James 2:14

2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong? 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. 12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

(Taking thing out of context again.. right Dog. Let's look at the context... by looking at the WHOLE thought in this discourse. It's about "faith and deeds." Once again... it's a matter of heart and attitude... there is nothing in these passages that cliams you should not be rich.

Faith... deeds, attitude and what's in your heart. That' what makes a person a follower of Jesus, an inheritor of the Kingdom. You actually sin against God and his word... "2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes..." You do show favoritism... to those who are not rich.

So you, a self-professed atheist, takes it upon herself to lecture others on what being a follower of Christ is all about. Did anyone suggest that it is against the teachings of Christ to be rich. Of course not, as I clearly stated above. What Christ did teach was that if one is rich and did not attend to the needs of the poor, then that person would achieve the kingdom of heaven.

As Pope Francis discussed, money should be made to “serve” people, not to “rule” them, he said, calling for a more ethical financial system and curbs on financial speculation. “The worship of the golden calf of old has found a new and heartless image in the cult of money and the dictatorship of an economy which is faceless and lacking any truly human goal,” Francis told the ambassadors.

It seems that you would rather distort my comments rather than truly discuss the statements by the Pope, which is the topic of this thread.

If your philosophy is to simply acquire wealth and accumulate goods, then no, you are not following the teachings of Christ. According to the teachings of Christ, one should use their wealth to serve the poor, rather than to accumulate wealth merely for the sake of worshiping the golden calf.

So Soros is going to hell? He is the most successful speculator I know. Trivia: Jews were the bankers and moneylenders because it used to be morally wrong in the Middle Ages for Christians to charge interest on loans. Still considered morally wrong for Islam too IIRC.

FredHayek wrote: So Soros is going to hell? He is the most successful speculator I know. Trivia: Jews were the bankers and moneylenders because it used to be morally wrong in the Middle Ages for Christians to charge interest on loans. Still considered morally wrong for Islam too IIRC.

Only if you're naive enough to believe that Soros doesn't give to charities and to the poor... Actually if I want to see a list of the super-rich that gives to the poor, I certainly wouldn't look to the vultures in the GOTP...

http://www.georgesoros.com/faqs/entry/g ... ecedented/

Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

But then, you knew that... And THIS thread is about the Catholic Church denouncing the selfish capitalists.

Well Dog, at least you have one of the few current threads LJ can work her magic in. :thumbsup:

LadyJazzer wrote:

FredHayek wrote: So Soros is going to hell? He is the most successful speculator I know. Trivia: Jews were the bankers and moneylenders because it used to be morally wrong in the Middle Ages for Christians to charge interest on loans. Still considered morally wrong for Islam too IIRC.

Only if you're naive enough to believe that Soros doesn't give to charities and to the poor... Actually if I want to see a list of the super-rich that gives to the poor, I certainly wouldn't look to the vultures in the GOTP...

http://www.georgesoros.com/faqs/entry/g ... ecedented/

Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

But then, you knew that... And THIS thread is about the Catholic Church denouncing the selfish capitalists.

I know it's not the topic of this thread... but doesn't the Hebrew and Greek scriptures have it's fair share of teachings against being a bigot? I thought so... hypocrite heal thyself!!!

FredHayek wrote: Cafeteria non-Catholics! I will have the wealth envy, but no thanks to the anti-homosexuality, anti-women priests, & anti-birth control.

The Catholic Church is not anti-homosexual. It disapproves of fornication regardless of one's sexual orientation.