Were voter's "really" disenfranchised?

ZHawke wrote: Voters everywhere are required to register in order to vote. I have no problem with a picture ID being issued at that specific time for those currently having no other form of photo ID. That being said, what kind of certifiable ID should be required in order to get a photo ID in order to vote? Some states, again, Texas as a prime example, that place what I consider to be an inordinate onus on certain groups in this regard.

My understanding is that Texas accepts handgun permits as a certified voting ID but does not accept student photo IDs for voting purposes. To me, that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

The problem with this is that in order to avoid "disenfranchising" voters the courts have created the ability for groups not officially part of the government, ACORN comes to mind immediately, to register voters. And let's be honest here, does anyone interested in vote integrity really think groups like ACORN should be issuing IDs to be used for any official purposes? If you wish to return to voters only being allowed to register at official government agencies, isn't that just as disenfranchising as requiring them to go to those same agencies to obtain an ID would be?

With regards to the differences between the state issuing a handgun permit, which may be used for official identification purposes after the person has jumped through all the hoops required to obtain it, including fingerprinting and a thorough investigation of their background commencing with their birth, and a college or university ID, I find it difficult to believe that you believe that it doesn't make any sense. I, myself, have an ID from when I was in college that lists my name as '66 Rambler, the car I drove at the time, complete with a photo of me in "Flower Power" era sunglasses. I know firsthand how those IDs are created and the lack of oversight within the process and the logic behind the decision to exclude them from being used as a voter ID makes absolute sense to me.

My understanding is that Texas accepts handgun permits as a certified voting ID but does not accept student photo IDs for voting purposes. To me, that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Is proof of US citizenship required in order to get a student photo ID in Texas?

PrintSmith wrote: The problem with this is that in order to avoid "disenfranchising" voters the courts have created the ability for groups not officially part of the government, ACORN comes to mind immediately, to register voters.

I respectfully disagree groups like ACORN have the "ability" to "register voters". They can submit voter registration forms, but cannot, themselves, actually register voters. That's what they got into trouble for: submitting forms their own employees filled out, not necessarily to have the organization commit election fraud, but, according to FactCheck.org, because their employees were trying to get paid for work they did not do. ACORN, while a shining example of how election fraud, not voter fraud, can be rampant, isn't, in my opinion, representative of all organizations working to try to help get out the vote ( www.factcheck.org/2008/10/acorn-accusations/ ).

PrintSmith wrote: And let's be honest here, does anyone interested in vote integrity really think groups like ACORN should be issuing IDs to be used for any official purposes? If you wish to return to voters only being allowed to register at official government agencies, isn't that just as disenfranchising as requiring them to go to those same agencies to obtain an ID would be?

No. But, I'm not so sure ACORN was actually doing that. If you have proof otherwise, I'd really appreciate being able to see it. I've looked and have found no evidence to that effect.

PrintSmith wrote: With regards to the differences between the state issuing a handgun permit, which may be used for official identification purposes after the person has jumped through all the hoops required to obtain it, including fingerprinting and a thorough investigation of their background commencing with their birth, and a college or university ID, I find it difficult to believe that you believe that it doesn't make any sense.

Why not? It's a photo ID. In order for students to be issued a student photo ID, it's my understanding they must also go through a verification process in order to be enrolled. That may include a driver's license, a birth certificate, or some other certifiable means of identification to ensure they are who they say they are. Granted, getting a gun permit is more stringent. But there's irony in allowing one and not the other when both require some form of identification certification - the entire point I'm trying to make here.

PrintSmith wrote: I, myself, have an ID from when I was in college that lists my name as '66 Rambler, the car I drove at the time, complete with a photo of me in "Flower Power" era sunglasses. I know firsthand how those IDs are created and the lack of oversight within the process and the logic behind the decision to exclude them from being used as a voter ID makes absolute sense to me.

You hippie, you.

Are those type of student IDs still prevalent? I may even be older than you (don't know for sure), but my student ID was nothing of which you speak.

Ah yes, good ol' ACORN:

Voter registration drives conducted by ACORN and affiliated entities have led to controversy and allegations of vote fraud.
The organization has been accused of different types of misbehavior with regard to voter registration drives:
Failing to adequately monitor and supervise its employees to the point where the organization should be held responsible for what the employees did.
Turning in "massive numbers" of duplicate registration cards.
Turning in registration cards for fictional characters.
Turning in registration cards filled out by children.
Turning in registration cards where the signatures had been forged.

Good thing these anti-American creeps got caught.

ballotpedia.org/ACORN_and_voter_registration_fraud

ZHawke wrote:

PrintSmith wrote: The problem with this is that in order to avoid "disenfranchising" voters the courts have created the ability for groups not officially part of the government, ACORN comes to mind immediately, to register voters.

I respectfully disagree groups like ACORN have the "ability" to "register voters". They can submit voter registration forms, but cannot, themselves, actually register voters. That's what they got into trouble for: submitting forms their own employees filled out, not necessarily to have the organization commit election fraud, but, according to FactCheck.org, because their employees were trying to get paid for work they did not do. ACORN, while a shining example of how election fraud, not voter fraud, can be rampant, isn't, in my opinion, representative of all organizations working to try to help get out the vote

PrintSmith wrote: And let's be honest here, does anyone interested in vote integrity really think groups like ACORN should be issuing IDs to be used for any official purposes? If you wish to return to voters only being allowed to register at official government agencies, isn't that just as disenfranchising as requiring them to go to those same agencies to obtain an ID would be?

No. But, I'm not so sure ACORN was actually doing that. If you have proof otherwise, I'd really appreciate being able to see it. I've looked and have found no evidence to that effect.

So busy looking to find fault with me that you miss the point entirely. If a voter is to receive their ID at the time they register, and they sign the registration form with a representative of ACORN or other group, then ACORN or that other group are going to be the entity issuing the official voter ID that the registrant uses, which no sane person would consider to be a good idea. The alternative to that, in order to ensure that an official government entity issues the ID at the time the voter registers, is to register voters only at official government places, which are the same places that voters have to go to get an ID now, which is what you, and others, allege is a plot to reduce access to participate in the process to begin with. You were the one who suggested the person receive their ID at the time they registered to vote, right? I'm attempting to have a discussion with you on that point and illuminate why that can't be done under the current system and why the same groups wailing and gnashing their teeth currently regarding IDs would continue to wail and gnash their teeth if people had to travel to the same place to register that they currently have to travel to in order to obtain the ID required by law to cast a ballot in person.

ZHawke wrote:

PrintSmith wrote: With regards to the differences between the state issuing a handgun permit, which may be used for official identification purposes after the person has jumped through all the hoops required to obtain it, including fingerprinting and a thorough investigation of their background commencing with their birth, and a college or university ID, I find it difficult to believe that you believe that it doesn't make any sense.

Why not? It's a photo ID. In order for students to be issued a student photo ID, it's my understanding they must also go through a verification process in order to be enrolled. That may include a driver's license, a birth certificate, or some other certifiable means of identification to ensure they are who they say they are. Granted, getting a gun permit is more stringent. But there's irony in allowing one and not the other when both require some form of identification certification - the entire point I'm trying to make here.

PrintSmith wrote: I, myself, have an ID from when I was in college that lists my name as '66 Rambler, the car I drove at the time, complete with a photo of me in "Flower Power" era sunglasses. I know firsthand how those IDs are created and the lack of oversight within the process and the logic behind the decision to exclude them from being used as a voter ID makes absolute sense to me.

You hippie, you.

Are those type of student IDs still prevalent? I may even be older than you (don't know for sure), but my student ID was nothing of which you speak.

Parsing a single argument into separate ones is disingenuous Z. The entire post went to the point of showing that an ID from a college or university lacks the oversight necessary to ensure its validity. That the majority of IDs issued by a college or university are issued to registered attendees of the institution doesn't establish that all of them are valid, as my anecdotal example shows. The other problem, noted by jf1acai and not yet addressed in your replies, is that students of foreign States attend colleges and universities in Texas and every other institution in the Union. Not everyone attending is a citizen of the State in which the institution they attend is located and as such they would be ineligible to vote even if they had registered with ACORN or another group on campus and had a valid ID issued by the institution.

For these two reasons the exclusion of college and university IDs from the list of acceptable ones can be determined to be a reasoned one.

PrintSmith, the same could be said of your posts directed toward me (busy looking to find fault). Let's just not go there, ok? Parsing is something we're all guilty of. Let's just leave it at that.

ACORN was an organization that got caught doing something it wasn't supposed to be doing. They arguably no longer exist, and, for all intents and purposes, good riddance.. I do not believe they had the "authority" to register voters. Nor did they have the "authority" to issue voter IDs.

Voter IDs made available upon actual voter registration at established registration facilities is, at least to me, what we are talking about here along with what other types of photo identification might be acceptable for voter ID. Some states are more stringent in this regard than others. That's an undeniable fact. The question then becomes one of what "should" suffice?

As far as your assertion that it "can't be done under the current system", I don't disagree. But I assert the problem is with the individual states and the plethora of "qualifications" some are putting in place that give the appearance of disenfranchising the groups mentioned previously. To what degree is still a matter as yet to be determined.

The "entire post", PrintSmith? Really. Your entire post was about college/university IDs? I'd have to respectfully disagree on that one.

Here is what is required to vote in person in Texas.

votetexas.gov/register-to-vote/need-id/

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Required Identification for Voting in Person

Don´t have a photo ID for voting? Election Identification Certificates are available from DPS driver license offices during regular business hours. Find mobile station locations here.

Frequently Asked Questions
In 2011, the Texas Legislature passed Senate Bill 14 (SB 14) creating a new requirement for voters to show photo identification when voting in person. While pending review within the judicial system, the U.S. Supreme Court issued its opinion in Shelby County v. Holder, which effectively ended all pending litigation. As a result, voters are now required to present an approved form of photo identification in order to vote in all Texas Elections.


This requirement is effective immediately.

Here is a list of the acceptable forms of photo ID:

Texas driver license issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS)
Texas Election Identification Certificate issued by DPS
Texas personal identification card issued by DPS
Texas concealed handgun license issued by DPS
United States military identification card containing the person’s photograph
United States citizenship certificate containing the person’s photograph
United States passport

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

As for out of state students.....they are provided a way to vote in their home state......It is called an absentee ballot.

Becky, I'd say being "reasonable" or "unreasonable" is in the eye of the beholder.

What exactly do you find unreasonable about Texas requirements to vote "in person"?

Texas voters must show a photo ID to vote in elections in Texas, unless you are exempt (see “Exemptions” below).

If you do not have any of the following acceptable forms of ID, beginning June 26, 2013, you may apply for an Election Identification Certificate (EIC) at no charge. However, if you already have any of the following forms of ID, you are not eligible for an EIC:

www.txdps.state.tx.us/driverlicense/electionid.htm